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Berberine, A Supplement With Some Teeth

Adachi said:
The micro nutrient content per ounce of beef is much higher than commonly understood. Eggs, even moreso. I get lots of micronutrients.
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You're getting lots, but also missing a lot.

You're a grown up.

Eat your vegetables.

No legit nutritionist on the planet would say you shouldn't eat vegetables.

98881ca7e6ea5d6d86bcd0aaee04dcac.jpg
 
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My wife made some fried rice when my parents came to visit.

I had some of that. There's veggies in there. It's made from scratch. Had to peel the shrimp and everything.
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watchnerd said:
You're getting lots, but also missing a lot.

You're a grown up.

Eat your vegetables.

No legit nutritionist on the planet would say you shouldn't eat vegetables.
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I think he's trying to say he doesn't need to, not that he's saying he shouldn't.

Other than vitamins and minerals, which are better found in animal products, and fiber, which is optional, I'm not sure if we couldn't be better served with spices in general than veggies with respect to phytonutrients. I struggle to find value in plants grown in dead soil outside of macronutrient content.

I like onions and kimchi(live). But, mostly for bile flow reasons and I heard that the gut biome can make vitamins in yer tubez.

This still seems like a pretty open topic. Do we know for sure that eating vegetables makes us healthy or if healthy people eat more vegetables? Maybe its just the crunching or that they can make you feel full? Is the hormesis effect from vegetables really that strong?

No legit nutritionist would risk their license telling their clients anything that the state that licenses them doesn't approve of, even if it was true and healthful. This should indicate low credibility: The advice from people that get their operational parameters from entities controlled by popularity contests and legalized bribery... bless their hearts.

The people need a simple story to believe in, so they do:

Eat your vegetables.
 
From examine.com
Examine.com :
Broadly speaking, berberine supplementation results in the activation of enzymes responsible for regulating (among other things) energy usage in the body. Most notably, berberine activates AMPK, PKC, and SIRT 1.[1]

In animal models, berberine supplementation results in the activation of AMPK.[2] When active, AMPK interacts with a variety of enzymes to suppress anabolic processes (i.e., storing energy and building tissue) and promote catabolism (i.e., breaking down the aforementioned tissue and utilizing glucose for energy).[3] As well as increasing the activity of the glycolytic pathway, AMPK also improves glucose uptake by cells by encouraging glucose transport proteins to migrate to the cell membrane, which increases the rate at which glucose exits the blood and enters the cells (where it is broken down).[4]

Relatedly, berberine also results in the activation of PKC. Like AMPK, PKC has a variety of regulatory functions, but most importantly (in this case) it regulates the expression of insulin receptor genes. When activated, PKC increases the rate at which these genes are transcribed and translated into proteins, thereby increasing the number of insulin receptors on cell membranes.[5] Insulin is required to transport glucose into muscle and fat cells, so this PKC-dependent upregulation of insulin receptors can be said to make these cells more “insulin-sensitive”, meaning that less insulin must be released by the pancreas to effectively move glucose from the blood into cells.

Berberine can also improve insulin sensitivity through its effects on another regulatory enzyme, SIRT1. SIRT1 is one of several sirtuins present in mammals and helps regulate apoptosis (programmed cell death), mitochondrial function, and inflammation. One animal study found that berberine’s activation of SIRT1 helps improve mitochondrial function (in part by increasing the synthesis of mitochondria) and consequently lowers blood sugar and reduces obesity in rats fed a high-fat diet.[6]
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Examine.com :

Background​

High blood-sugar levels are toxic: they damage cells and tissues, including in the brain, thereby increasing the risk of accelerated cognitive decline and dementia. Many type 2 diabetics take metformin, which activates the enzyme AMPK and thus suppresses glucose production from the liver and increases insulin-stimulated glucose uptake, thereby improving blood-sugar control. The present study examined the effect of metformin on dementia and cognitive decline in type 2 diabetics.

The study​

This prospective observational study included 1,037 people aged 70–90 without dementia at baseline — 123 had diabetes and 67 of the diabetics were being treated with metformin. Every two years for six years, each participant was tested for memory, language, attention/speed, executive function, and visuospatial function. The test results were combined to calculate a global cognition score.

The results​

Global cognition and executive function declined less in the diabetics who took metformin than in the diabetics who didn’t — trends for cognition in the diabetics on metformin were similar to those of the non-diabetics. Incidence of dementia was five times lower in the diabetics who took metformin than in the diabetics who didn’t.
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I wonder how this would benefit somebody with say, APOE 4:3...

Seems on the whole metformin could just be a cheap knockoff of berberine?
 
HarryBergers said:
I think he's trying to say he doesn't need to, not that he's saying he shouldn't.

Other than vitamins and minerals, which are better found in animal products, and fiber, which is optional, I'm not sure if we couldn't be better served with spices in general than veggies with respect to phytonutrients. I struggle to find value in plants grown in dead soil outside of macronutrient content.

I like onions and kimchi(live). But, mostly for bile flow reasons and I heard that the gut biome can make vitamins in yer tubez.

This still seems like a pretty open topic. Do we know for sure that eating vegetables makes us healthy or if healthy people eat more vegetables? Maybe its just the crunching or that they can make you feel full? Is the hormesis effect from vegetables really that strong?

No legit nutritionist would risk their license telling their clients anything that the state that licenses them doesn't approve of, even if it was true and healthful. This should indicate low credibility: The advice from people that get their operational parameters from entities controlled by popularity contests and legalized bribery... bless their hearts.

The people need a simple story to believe in, so they do:

Eat your vegetables.
Click to expand...

Look at the Blue Zone studies.

Pretty high correlation between eating vegetables and longevity.

Plus, the non-starchy kinds are pretty low in calories.

What do you have to lose?

A bag of spinach isn't going to bust your calorie count.

FWIW, I'm not a vegan or advocating plant-only. I'm a full omnivore.
 
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watchnerd said:
You're getting lots, but also missing a lot.

You're a grown up.

Eat your vegetables.

No legit nutritionist on the planet would say you shouldn't eat vegetables.

98881ca7e6ea5d6d86bcd0aaee04dcac.jpg
Click to expand...

What exactly is he missing out on except for Vitamin C and fiber? I wouldn't say that he's missing out a lot, if it's only those. Please, be specific.
 
Antti said:
What exactly is he missing out on except for Vitamin C and fiber? I wouldn't say that he's missing out a lot, if it's only those. Please, be specific.
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Those are pretty big.

Phytonutrients are the other major category.

www.webmd.com

What Are Phytonutrients? Types and Food Sources

WebMD explains the health benefits of phytonutrients, natural chemcials that are found in a variety of plant foods.
www.webmd.com www.webmd.com

Are they essential to keep you alive?

Mostly not

Are they good for better health, disease resistance, and cancer resistance?

Probably

Economic and caloric cost?

Low

Why not eat some?

Even the cliche bodybuilder cutting diet of chicken, brown rice, and broccoli has vegetables in it.
 
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In another thread recently, I noted that most people don't eat varied, sensibly, or well (which I believe are the three pillars of a healthy diet). If you're not eating fruits and vegetables, it's not varied, or sensible, or well imo. I was absolutely going to mention phytonutrients before coming back to the thread and seeing that watchnerd beat me to it. It's why a varied diet is important - if you eat (or don't eat) the same thing everyday, then you're probably going to be missing some things or "ODing" on others.

This should NOT be shocking to anyone - if it were training, everyone would say that if you were doing only squats ALL THE TIME or never training your posterior chain (for example) that you''re setting yourself up for overuse injuries and imbalances...
 
Was stuck at ~250-255 lbs back and forth for months. Almost a week in starting berberine from 250 lbs weight on first day. Today's weigh in is 248 lbs. Previous plateau weight before 250 ish was 245. If I get below 245 I'll be more sure I've got something, here.

Still adding in bits of HIIT bits of cardio and hypertrophy training.

Otherwise feeling largely "the same" energy and strength wise so far
 
watchnerd said:
Those are pretty big.

Phytonutrients are the other major category.

www.webmd.com

What Are Phytonutrients? Types and Food Sources

WebMD explains the health benefits of phytonutrients, natural chemcials that are found in a variety of plant foods.
www.webmd.com www.webmd.com

Are they essential to keep you alive?

Mostly not

Are they good for better health, disease resistance, and cancer resistance?

Probably

Economic and caloric cost?

Low

Why not eat some?

Even the cliche bodybuilder cutting diet of chicken, brown rice, and broccoli has vegetables in it.
Click to expand...

I agree that it's not a big problem to eat fruit and veggies. Still, even if you did, you'd have to make sure that you meet your nutrients. Just eating some doesn't mean a thing if you want to get to it.

I'm not sold on the usefulness of all the phytonutrients. However, if you look at the necessary micronutrients, it's really easy to get them with just milk, beef, eggs and liver, and no special amounts of them either. You'll even get some Vitamin C.

I'm not advocating a carnivore diet to anyone, but I won't say it can't be a good and healthy diet for some.
 
watchnerd said:
Those are pretty big.

Phytonutrients are the other major category.

www.webmd.com

What Are Phytonutrients? Types and Food Sources

WebMD explains the health benefits of phytonutrients, natural chemcials that are found in a variety of plant foods.
www.webmd.com www.webmd.com

Are they essential to keep you alive?

Mostly not

Are they good for better health, disease resistance, and cancer resistance?

Probably

Economic and caloric cost?

Low

Why not eat some?

Even the cliche bodybuilder cutting diet of chicken, brown rice, and broccoli has vegetables in it.
Click to expand...
I'd say the main benefit to adding broc. is the volume.
 
Antti said:
What exactly is he missing out on except for Vitamin C and fiber? I wouldn't say that he's missing out a lot, if it's only those. Please, be specific.
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Vitamin A
folate
Vitamin E
Vitamin K
Boron
Calcium
Potassium
Copper
Magnesium
Manganese

Just a guess though.
Antti said:
I won't say it can't be a good and healthy diet for some
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I will. But I’m not your mom and nobody asked my opinion.
HarryBergers said:
plants grown in dead soil
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If you have dead soil you aren’t growing much of anything.
 
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watchnerd said:
Look at the Blue Zone studies.

Pretty high correlation between eating vegetables and longevity.

Plus, the non-starchy kinds are pretty low in calories.

What do you have to lose?

A bag of spinach isn't going to bust your calorie count.

FWIW, I'm not a vegan or advocating plant-only. I'm a full omnivore.
Click to expand...
Why doesn't anybody ever bring up how low the relative daily stress of the people living in the blue zones is/was? That's like saying smoking correlates with longevity in the blue zone studies so you better smoke to live longer.

Correlations can go either way causally.

Boris Bachmann said:
I was absolutely going to mention phytonutrients before coming back to the thread and seeing that watchnerd beat me to it. It's why a varied diet is important - if you eat (or don't eat) the same thing everyday, then you're probably going to be missing some things or "ODing" on others.

This should NOT be shocking to anyone - if it were training, everyone would say that if you were doing only squats ALL THE TIME or never training your posterior chain (for example) that you''re setting yourself up for overuse injuries and imbalances...
Click to expand...
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I brought phytonutrients up to steel man whatever case vegetables might have.

I eat a diet of varied animal products to ensure I don't have any nutrient deficiencies. My staples however are as boring as adachi 's.
silveraw said:
Vitamin A
folate
Vitamin E
Vitamin K
Boron
Calcium
Potassium
Copper
Magnesium
Manganese

Just a guess though.

I will. But I’m not your mom and nobody asked my opinion.

If you have dead soil you aren’t growing much of anything.
Click to expand...
All of those you can get from animal products.

I was stating that industrialized soil fertilization has ensured that you get much less of those from your veggies.
 
HarryBergers said:
All of those you can get from animal products.
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Not in this specific case. Nor most.

I can get all of them from a pill, but if I don’t take the pill I don’t get them.
HarryBergers said:
I was stating that industrialized soil fertilization has ensured that you get much less of those from your veggies.
Click to expand...
You should look into that a bit more before holding too strong of an opinion.

It’s obvious that this has triggered some folks. I’m going to step out.

I would recommend contacting your local dietician for specific advice.

In a sense I agree with Harry on this, nutritionists are kind of a mess with weekend certifications of varying worth.
 
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HarryBergers said:
I brought phytonutrients up to steel man whatever case vegetables might have.

I eat a diet of varied animal products to ensure I don't have any nutrient deficiencies. My staples however are as boring as adachi 's.

All of those you can get from animal products.
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How do you 'ensure' that?
If you question the nutrition derived from vegetable sources because of soil, then I hope you give the same scrutiny to your "animal products"... Phytonutrients would be one of many things that I would point to with eating/never eating veggies (and a varied diet). We already mentioned fiber (here?), micros, gut health.... Yeah, you could live on Subway 6" club sandwiches for the rest of your life and take a vitamin/mineral supp and call it good, but I'm guessing there are going to be some bases uncovered. Would that affect your health/longevity? Maybe. Maybe not.
 
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