mmm cherries... that is some summer memories...
Nutrition Vitamin C - Can Lead to Kidney Stones?
- Thread starter Steve Freides
- Start date
Denys Carthusian
Level 5 Valued Member
Well, given the over 50,000 IVs of Vitamin C done at the Riordan Clinic I would assume this epidemic of kidney stones would have broken out all over the mid western United States.
oab
Level 6 Valued Member
The dose makes a thing a poison or not a poison:
Because oxalate is a metabolite of vitamin C, there is some concern that high vitamin C intake could increase the risk of calcium oxalate kidney stones. Some (24, 191, 192), but not all (193-195), studies have reported that supplemental vitamin C increases urinary oxalate concentrations. Whether any increase in oxalate levels would translate to an elevation in risk for kidney stones has been examined in several epidemiological studies. Two large prospective cohort studies, one following 45,251 men for six years and the other following 85,557 women for 14 years, reported that consumption of ≥1,500 mg of vitamin C daily did not increase the risk of kidney stone formation compared to those consuming <250 mg daily (196, 197). On the other hand, two other large prospective studies reported that a high intake of vitamin C was associated with an increased risk of kidney stone formation in men (198, 199). Specifically, the Health Professionals Follow-Up Study collected data on dietary and supplemental vitamin C intake every four years in 45,619 male health professionals (ages 40-75 years) (198). After 14 years of follow-up, it was found that men who consumed ≥1,000 mg/day of vitamin C had a 41% higher risk of kidney stones compared to men consuming <90 mg of vitamin C daily. In the Cohort of Swedish Men study, self-reported use of single-nutrient vitamin C supplements (taken seven or more times per week) at baseline was associated with a two-fold higher risk of incident kidney stones among 48,840 men (ages 45-79 years) followed for 11 years (199). Despite conflicting results, it may be prudent for individuals predisposed to oxalate kidney stone formation to avoid high-dose vitamin C supplementation.
from:
Vitamin C
Thus, the Linus Pauling Institute recommends a vitamin C intake of 400 mg daily for adults to ensure replete tissue concentrations (29) — an amount substantially higher than the RDA yet with minimal risk of side effects. This recommendation can be met through food if the diet includes at least several servings of vitamin C-rich fruit and vegetables (e.g., citrus fruit, kiwifruit, peppers; see Food sources) as part of the daily recommended fruit and vegetable intake (see article on Fruit and Vegetables). Most multivitamin supplements provide at least 60 mg of vitamin C.
Total Vitamin C ingested= meat+fish+fruit+vegetable+ supplements.
Because oxalate is a metabolite of vitamin C, there is some concern that high vitamin C intake could increase the risk of calcium oxalate kidney stones. Some (24, 191, 192), but not all (193-195), studies have reported that supplemental vitamin C increases urinary oxalate concentrations. Whether any increase in oxalate levels would translate to an elevation in risk for kidney stones has been examined in several epidemiological studies. Two large prospective cohort studies, one following 45,251 men for six years and the other following 85,557 women for 14 years, reported that consumption of ≥1,500 mg of vitamin C daily did not increase the risk of kidney stone formation compared to those consuming <250 mg daily (196, 197). On the other hand, two other large prospective studies reported that a high intake of vitamin C was associated with an increased risk of kidney stone formation in men (198, 199). Specifically, the Health Professionals Follow-Up Study collected data on dietary and supplemental vitamin C intake every four years in 45,619 male health professionals (ages 40-75 years) (198). After 14 years of follow-up, it was found that men who consumed ≥1,000 mg/day of vitamin C had a 41% higher risk of kidney stones compared to men consuming <90 mg of vitamin C daily. In the Cohort of Swedish Men study, self-reported use of single-nutrient vitamin C supplements (taken seven or more times per week) at baseline was associated with a two-fold higher risk of incident kidney stones among 48,840 men (ages 45-79 years) followed for 11 years (199). Despite conflicting results, it may be prudent for individuals predisposed to oxalate kidney stone formation to avoid high-dose vitamin C supplementation.
from:
Vitamin C
Thus, the Linus Pauling Institute recommends a vitamin C intake of 400 mg daily for adults to ensure replete tissue concentrations (29) — an amount substantially higher than the RDA yet with minimal risk of side effects. This recommendation can be met through food if the diet includes at least several servings of vitamin C-rich fruit and vegetables (e.g., citrus fruit, kiwifruit, peppers; see Food sources) as part of the daily recommended fruit and vegetable intake (see article on Fruit and Vegetables). Most multivitamin supplements provide at least 60 mg of vitamin C.
Total Vitamin C ingested= meat+fish+fruit+vegetable+ supplements.
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Please don't shoot the messenger. I thought Harvard was a reputable source when I happened upon the article so I posted a link to it.
-S-
Not opposed to IV ascorbic acid. I believe it converts to H2O2 in the body, one reason it works well with a reaction like sepsis.
I always have some food grade H2O2 in the freezer , I'll mix some drops in water and take as a bug fighting tonic from time to time.
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Denys Carthusian
Level 5 Valued Member
In the video I posted, the comatose patient was revived by his family. In a follow up presentation by the very much alive patient, they flew in Dr. Thomas Levy, MD, JD who consulted on the case and is a board certifications in cardiology and internal medicine who is also a lawyer and he stated bluntly that many MDs would prefer the patient dies than admit that Vitamin C has any clinical efficacy in a hospital setting.
He has also defended several biological dentists from actions by their state licensing boards.
Even those MDs who are open to the therapy have to be very careful not to get bounced.
Denys Carthusian
Level 5 Valued Member
My daily oral intake is anywhere from 4 to 12 grams (much like Pauling himself) not including liposomal or any IVs. I also nebulize 3% food grade hydrogen peroxide and glutathione directly into my lungs. The kidney stone canard has been widely debunked by Levy amongst others.
Denys Carthusian
Level 5 Valued Member
In sepsis, the low dose hydrocortisone opens the cellular membrane up which otherwise would be closed to the IV Vitamin C.
Denys Carthusian
Level 5 Valued Member
There is another danger to the kidneys from high does Vitamin C that is separate and apart from kidney stones: Oxalate nephropathy. From my brother, who is a nephrologist, "Vitamin C high-dose and kidney failure: I've seen this several times myself. A healthy kidney can actually deal with a lot of oxalate, but any impairment (NSAIDs, volume depletion, etc) can start a spiral. Oxalate nephropathy is usually (though not always) irreversible. Again this is different from the kidney stones, which are more annoying but not as dangerous." Since I have one kidney now, I consult with him anytime I have questions about supplements, etc. He advises, "You should not take high-dose vitamin C. I don’t think your associates should either, but that is up to them." He does not believe there is any benefit to it (though recognizes that entire knowledge of potential benefits exceeds his scope of practice) and is quite sure there is some potential harm. I have some specific studies and citations if you're interested, but if you do some searches on "Oxalate nephropathy" +"Vitamin C" you will find plenty.
Denys Carthusian
Level 5 Valued Member
I have an elderly relative who was headed for dialysis according to his nephrologist. That was 4 years ago. We've successfully reversed his kidney decline. Because of his low function we rely on liposomal Vitamin C (which bypasses the kidneys), fish oil, niacin, and ozone major hematotherapy as well as magnesium chloride each day diffused into 2 litres of distilled water.
Denys Carthusian
Level 5 Valued Member
Denys Carthusian
Level 5 Valued Member
Denys Carthusian
Level 5 Valued Member
silveraw
Level 9 Valued Member
Isn't vitamin C literally ascorbic acid? Or are you saying powdered oranges have additional nutrients that would help offset oxalates and kidney stone risk?
(now that I type it out that makes sense, but as should be painfully obvious, I last took chemistry over two decades ago)
Yes, I would say food sources aren't the same as lab sources. I'd rather have folate over folic acid, retinol over retinyl palmitate, etc.
randyh
Level 4 Valued Member
It isn't just the C, as the article does drift into eventually. It's in combination with calcium intake and sensitivity to oxalates, which can have a hereditary component. If you are prone to kidney stones. then staying away from high dose C and high oxalate foods like spinach isn't a bad idea. Oxalates are no joke...read up on "dumb cane," and other arum plants for horror show examples of what "needle oxalates" can do, even just handling them.
Georgiaoutdoors
Level 5 Valued Member
It seems that just about ‘anything’ can lead to “something” in some percentage sense of the population…
Denys Carthusian
Level 5 Valued Member
Sodium ascorbate is the preferred ph balanced IV solution - ascorbic acid pure is too acidic and you need a buffering agent. (and you can buy oral dosing in a 3 lb container from NOW).
Denys Carthusian
Level 5 Valued Member
Folic acid is a whole different kettle of fish.