all posts post new thread

Other/Mixed Summer training project; help me fix my scapula (so I can do plain old pushups again)

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)

bluejeff

Level 7 Valued Member
Hi SF community,

As many of you might know, I have done extensive self-research into the shoulder. This stemmed out of an injury and subsequent surgery on my right shoulder in 2017. Fast forward and now that shoulder is perfectly fine; it is now the left one that gives me trouble.

In short, it doesn't want to stick to my back when I do horizontal movements, and it tends to overly downwardly rotate below something like 90 degrees of flexion. Overhead is better because I can push in a more aB-ducted position, but as soon as I try regular old pushups, it refuses to cooperate. Doing a plank or something where I just pin it down in full protraction seems okay; it's when I try to bend at the elbows, or even just do scapular shrugs in a plank, that it misbehaves.

What I can do without much trouble:
-Overhead work, strangely enough. If I am careful, the upward rotation in overhead work feels okay. It's not always perfect or great, but it's good enough to do some overhead pushing.

-Pullups/chin ups: chin ups feel better. Pullups feel pretty good but if I try strict hollow pullups, there is something about the angle that seems to bother the shoulder.

Symptoms are:
-tight left neck and upper traps
-occasional aches on the anterior portion of the left shoulder
-left shoulder wants to "hike" or shrug up without my asking it too
-"winging" and excessive downward rotation below about 90 degress shoulder flexion. It also seems to have a funky resting position that you might be able to see it in some of the below videos.

What I have tried:
-everything, it seems like. I have been dealing with this since 2019. It has improved tremendously, to the point where I only get the above issues if I do much horizontal pressing, or get stressed out. Stress seems to aggravate the "hiking up" issue.
Specifically, I have tried:
-lots of PRI and breathing drills, ribcage expansion, postual changes to my hips and feet. All of this stuff has helped the most, but something just isn't clicking to get it all the way there. All of this stuff, in theory, is supposed to help with the resting position, but either I've taken it as far as it will go or I am not doing the right drills.

-band work: I have done Ido Portal's routine, which helped. It feels good and helped with the acute issues, but now (as you will see below) the scapula still does it's own thing. I have tried so many different band drills. A lot feel good, but, there's a recurring theme here....

-serratus slides: these feel great and seem to alleviate the neck tension, but don't seem to carry over to pushups

-Original Strength: many rocking and crawling drills feel good, and have helped a little, but again....don't carry over to pushups.

-Turkish Get ups: I know someone will mention this. I tried them multiple times and in some cases left with a tighter neck than before.

Physical therapy: the elephant in the room. I have seen a PT many times. The trouble is that I don't have money to see one consistently. Mine got me on the track of doing PRI-type stuff. I like her, however, I have no money for it at the moment.

I am just throwing this out there (again) in the hopes that some of the PTs/physios on the forum might have some suggestions. It could be that I have tried things that will help but just haven't done them long enough. I'm willing to try most anything at this point. I would like to be able to just do regular pushups again. Every time I do sets of regular pushups, I have plenty of general strength for the movement, but I pay for it with neck tension afterwards, and occasionally anterior shoulder pain. I also am 90% sure this issue part of what is holding me back from making strength gains with pressing in general.

Pushups. You can see the left shoulder blade stick out way more than the right.


Scapular pushups and plank position


Viking Press: keeping weight back on feet/heels, keeping tension out of face/neck. These feel good and "seem" to help, but if you have a close look, you can see the scap do its thing when I am in the bottom position


Pushups from above. This was taken last year. The symptoms you see are a little better, but not by much.


Thanks for taking the time to read/watch all that, if you did. And thanks in advance for any input.
 
What worked for
Hang on a pullup bar after a workout.
bodyweight TRX rows with a hold at the top.
Banded face pulls
 
Random addition. ensure that your shirts, and jackets are not too tight and watch your posture when you work on a pc
 
I used OS rocking to rehab a lot of my scapula problems. Instead of doing it with a torso parallel to the floor, I arched my thoracic spine like I was trying to point my chest several feet in front of me. This let me focus on pushing down into the ground with my scapula, kind of like the top of dip hold. Then I would rock, letting my scapula flow, but focused on recreating the scap activation I get from the exercise at 1:54 of this video this video:

 
I'd forget about pressing for a while and work on getting your upper back built up.

My presses almost always improve, both mechanically and in terms of force production, after I do a a few cycles of serious back work.

And I don't mean pull ups.

Rows, face pulls, scaption, trap work, etc.

Get a yoke.

Put some meat on that shoulder girdle.

Get thick and 3D.
 
3letterslong said:
I used OS rocking to rehab a lot of my scapula problems. Instead of doing it with a torso parallel to the floor, I arched my thoracic spine like I was trying to point my chest several feet in front of me. This let me focus on pushing down into the ground with my scapula, kind of like the top of dip hold. Then I would rock, letting my scapula flow, but focused on recreating the scap activation I get from the exercise at 1:54 of this video this video:

Click to expand...

Yeah I like that exercise! Was your scapular issue similar…? If you don’t mind me asking.

watchnerd said:
I'd forget about pressing for a while and work on getting your upper back built up.

My presses almost always improve, both mechanically and in terms of force production, after I do a a few cycles of serious back work.

And I don't mean pull ups.

Rows, face pulls, scaption, trap work, etc.

Get a yoke.

Put some meat on that shoulder girdle.

Get thick and 3D.
Click to expand...
Win, win! ;)

I have been working on a chunk of that stuff to see if anything clicks. But I’ll probably have to do it for a while to see if it helps. Banded cuban rotations/presses seem to have been one of the key exercises when I was rehabbing after surgery. They’re tricky now, though. They tend to want to light up my neck if I’m not extra tedious about form.
 
watchnerd said:
I'd forget about pressing for a while and work on getting your upper back built up. My presses almost always improve, both mechanically and in terms of force production, after I do a a few cycles of serious back work. And I don't mean pull ups.
Rows, face pulls, scaption, trap work, etc. Get a yoke. Put some meat on that shoulder girdle. Get thick and 3D.
Click to expand...
Yep. This is what I'd recommend. There are shrug, row, pullover complexes I'd recommend too - I'll try to add to this later today. Gotta go to work now.
 
bluejeff said:
Yeah I like that exercise! Was your scapular issue similar…? If you don’t mind me asking.
Click to expand...

It's hard to say. I had poor control over my right scapula and no control over my left scapula. Pressing of every kind was always a wobbly affair and pulling had the wrong set of muscles doing all the work. I couldn't keep them flat because I'd never used those muscles (and poor posture in my formative years pretty much shut them off) and they were in a natural rolled-forward position, so i had to wake up the upper back muscles, too.

Basically, I had to train and strengthen their ability to be flat on my back. The cues I gave myself were lower scaps are moving forward, almost rolling under the armpit, and upper scaps are moving back.

That rocking exercise, where I angle my torso so my scapula have to exert tension vertically down into the floor, really let me wake up and strengthen all those muscles as the scapula moved. I can't think of another way I could have done that.
 
I am no expert and while I also have scapular issues, they are not necessarily the same. However…

Have you tried TRE (trauma and tension releasing exercises)? I just heard about this from an osteopath I visited and oh boy does it work (for me). I am literally spasming all over, but it seems to fix places. You can just check out a video and repeat, it’s really easy to get the hang of it. I believe once you get the tremors up to your shoulder and give it time, it could be very helpful.

Another thing to check out is Geoff Neupert’s P3 protocol (sometimes called SJS / Sore Joint Solution). The first phase includes a side lying position and a prone position similar to the OS video above. You might find these useful. Also, at least previously you could get the initial level of first phase for free, so definitely worth checking out. The downside is that you must invest the time to do it - I found that doing it daily or even twice a day is a must, dropping to five times a week already diminishes the rate of adaptations.

Also, have you seen an osteopath? Could be worth it.
 
Training for Life said:
I am no expert and while I also have scapular issues, they are not necessarily the same. However…

Have you tried TRE (trauma and tension releasing exercises)? I just heard about this from an osteopath I visited and oh boy does it work (for me). I am literally spasming all over, but it seems to fix places. You can just check out a video and repeat, it’s really easy to get the hang of it. I believe once you get the tremors up to your shoulder and give it time, it could be very helpful.

Another thing to check out is Geoff Neupert’s P3 protocol (sometimes called SJS / Sore Joint Solution). The first phase includes a side lying position and a prone position similar to the OS video above. You might find these useful. Also, at least previously you could get the initial level of first phase for free, so definitely worth checking out. The downside is that you must invest the time to do it - I found that doing it daily or even twice a day is a must, dropping to five times a week already diminishes the rate of adaptations.

Also, have you seen an osteopath? Could be worth it.
Click to expand...
I haven’t seen an osteopath… if I get some spare money I might try it.

I did go through focal dystonia, so I am very well aware about the role of the nervous system and posture, trauma, etc. I think this issue is a remnant of that. I will look into the Neupert protocol. Thanks!
 
Dropping a line here just to follow along on the thread. When I first started kettlebelling, I was having pain in my left scap and I've always had scapula that stick out, or "wing". I did PT for it and worked on a lot of the stuff you've done and that others have mentioned here. I don't seem to have any physical issues or limitations in range of motion and I don't get pain anymore as long as I keep some things like rows, crawling, planks, etc. in my routine to keep my serratus and other back muscles working.

I still have winging on both sides, but I'm a pretty lean dude and I've also noticed that family members on my moms side all seem to have kind of boney backs/scaps. Maybe that's just the way I'm built?

Here I go making it about me. Anyway, I hope the knowledgable people here can help you out, brother. Like I said, wanted to stick around to see what folks had to say. Best of luck!
 
mvalenti said:
Dropping a line here just to follow along on the thread. When I first started kettlebelling, I was having pain in my left scap and I've always had scapula that stick out, or "wing". I did PT for it and worked on a lot of the stuff you've done and that others have mentioned here. I don't seem to have any physical issues or limitations in range of motion and I don't get pain anymore as long as I keep some things like rows, crawling, planks, etc. in my routine to keep my serratus and other back muscles working.

I still have winging on both sides, but I'm a pretty lean dude and I've also noticed that family members on my moms side all seem to have kind of boney backs/scaps. Maybe that's just the way I'm built?

Here I go making it about me. Anyway, I hope the knowledgable people here can help you out, brother. Like I said, wanted to stick around to see what folks had to say. Best of luck!
Click to expand...
Please do join in on this thread if you experience similar issues!

Something to consider is that some practitioners out there are not as convinced of the “link” between supposedly “poor biomechanics” and pain or injury. There are apparent studies and meta analyses that don’t show that strong a correlation. The reason I want to fix my issue is because I DO have discomfort that seems to stem from it. That said, if you don’t have pain or discomfort, I would just keep doing what you’re doing.

When I video every little thing I do in an effort to make things better, I often get pretty down about how nothing seems to help. So instead, to not drive myself crazy, I just ditch the camera except for when I want to check in with how things are doing. Instead of filming , I just try to make my movements feel as good as I can. This has given me enough to train, though like I said in my original post, I’ve seen little progress.

All that said…I am grateful for the supportive community here. I will be giving suggestions a serious try, and if I have the extra money, I’ll look into the paid stuff that has been suggested.
 
bluejeff said:
Something to consider is that some practitioners out there are not as convinced of the “link” between supposedly “poor biomechanics” and pain or injury. There are apparent studies and meta analyses that don’t show that strong a correlation. The reason I want to fix my issue is because I DO have discomfort that seems to stem from it. That said, if you don’t have pain or discomfort, I would just keep doing what you’re doing.
Click to expand...
This is where I'm at. I did the PT, it got better, but recently I had some knots coming back in the shoulder. Realized that I hadn't been doing some minimal maintenance. Started doing banded rows and crawling/planking either as a warm up or just through out the day and it hasn't bothered me in a few weeks.

I'm glad you're aware that sometimes getting really into it puts you in a worse off place; that's a hard thing to realize or come to terms with. Seems like you've got your head on straight, so keep up the good work and give yourself grace!
 
bluejeff said:
Yeah I like that exercise! Was your scapular issue similar…? If you don’t mind me asking.


Win, win! ;)

I have been working on a chunk of that stuff to see if anything clicks. But I’ll probably have to do it for a while to see if it helps. Banded cuban rotations/presses seem to have been one of the key exercises when I was rehabbing after surgery. They’re tricky now, though. They tend to want to light up my neck if I’m not extra tedious about form.
Click to expand...

Well, PT exercises are nice but I'd focus on some real meat-makers.

I'd want to put 3-4 good size 16 oz steaks on that back, so call it 5 lbs of muscle to allow for some buffer.
 
the hansenator said:
Yoga pushups are what helped my left shoulder the most. It seemed to work the left serratus in a way that other things hadn't, and after a while I could do regular pushups again.
Click to expand...
I really like those but unfortunately my scapula doesn’t stay in the right position once I’m below that 90° flexion mark. Once I can at least get it to work better, these types of push-ups would be my bread butter, simply because they take the shoulder through a full range of motion, and help keep the scap moving better.
 
watchnerd said:
Well, PT exercises are nice but I'd focus on some real meat-makers.

I'd want to put 3-4 good size 16 oz steaks on that back, so call it 5 lbs of muscle to allow for some buffer.
Click to expand...
Don’t get me wrong, I like the idea of that and I’m going to give it a go. I just feel like the issue is more of a coordination problem than a strength problem. It at least seems like I just can’t feel what I need to feel working, like if I can feel what it’s like to move correctly, then I will know how to practice.
 
my problems seem similar. years ago i messed up an inverted cross on the rings and jacked the nerves that fire much of the muscle (parts of SA and lower trap) that stabilizes my lower left scap. about a decade later, i suffered a frozen shoulder episode on that side that left me w basically no external rotation of the humerus, along with an unstable scap. i spent years doin the kinds of standard physio rehab exercises that folks are mostly already describing in this thread-- planks, blade, wall work, every imaginable stretch, etc. and doing high volume pressing work with lighter weights didnt help. that scap would eventually float and i'd pinch a rotator cuff.

in the end, i found three things that helped dramatically:

1. heavy overhead loading. doing TGUs, once i got up to 32k, i unexpectedly discovered that they helped to push the scap back into place, and that after a heavy session, that scap would "remember" that position for awhile. and from there, i started doing snatches, and found that a snatch w enuf weight just slammed everything back into place, and not only could i do them in reps w/o problems, it would help re-educate the scap (or the remaining functional SA, trap, etc.) for awhile. once my mobility improved enuf, i moved on to clean-and-jerk. ironically, i can do stacks of jerks or long cycle w heavy for me weight w/o issue. they're much better for me than strict presses. but doing the dynamic first has gradually opened up my pressing, although it'll never be what it was. bar snatch and overhead squats are workin wonders for me.

2. be conservative. i am very careful with exercises that could mess me up. i simply don't do heavy presses for reps. i don't bench anyway, but when i do strict bell or bar press, i start with a weight that drastically lags my current jerk/snatch comfort zone. i keep reps super low and blocs short. i used to do a lot of OAPs, but haven't in years. after two years of long cycle and OHSQ, i'm going to try again this summer. but i'll be really slow and conservative beginning. and if it isn't goin well, i'll kiss them good bye. but with the things i can do, that are somewhat risky, singles are my friend. or top set (3-2-1). with many movements, i'm happy with one good rep.

3. i gave up some stuff. i used to do a lot of iron crosses and muscle-ups on the rings. i used to do one arm pullups regularly. i'm sure i could do muscle-ups rn, and prolly a cross again with a bit of work, but those are both high-risk movements, and it's just not worth the risk. i've learned new movements instead, and honestly, i don't miss the old ones that much.

whatever you find that helps, i would go slow and steady. lots of folks in my cohort gettin shoulder replacements right now or battling arthritis. you want long-term function in those joints. good luck w your program
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom