Barbell Question for those who've done mock meets in teh gymz.

[Kenny Croxdale]

So a well-executed cycle shouldn't be disrupted by a random 1RM test or mock meet, do you agree?

No

A 1 RM Max Effort is disruptive. A 1RM is going to take something out of a lifter.

That is one of the reason that Lifter Taper Off during the last couple week prior to a meet.

The Deadlift is a great example. Most Powerlifter take 10-14 Days off from Deadlift Training prior to a Meet.

Steve's example fall in there; taking 12 days off.

Periodization Training

In Periodization Training Cycle a 1RM should be performed in the Last Week of it.

The following week, an New Training Cycle would need to be implemented because a 1RM is disruptive.

Strength Varies From One Training Session To The Next

Research show Strength Varies from one Session the next

Bulgarian Olympic Lifters

Their Training Percentage took into account these Strength Variations by basing it off their 1TM (Training Max). '

That allowed them to realistically based their Training Percentage on the reality; their Strength for that Training Session.

Bulgarian Misconception of Training

One of the misconception of Bulgarian Training is they training for longer periods with High Training Percentage compared to the Russians.

This misconception continues to be perpetuated by other, such as one from StrongFirst article.

Post 16

Information in post examine is in more detail.

Barbell - Variable Loading for barbell strength training

First time poster, long time lurker here (though I was active back in the DD mid 2000s days). Are there any articles or resources out there detailing barbell strength training using Variable loading parameters? I have seen it in the context of Q&D - interested to read more in context of barbell...

www.strongfirst.com

Take Home Message

1) A Max Effort Movement is going to take it out of a lifter and be disruptive.,

2) Variance Of Strength

There will be Variance of Strength from one Training Session to the Next.

While I understand the concept that taking a Opening Attempt, let's say a couple of weeks or or a little less out allows a lifter know what they may open with, I am not a proponent.

An Opening Attempt can be determined in the Number of Repetition performed in let's say a 5RM Squat; that providing a lifter has taken time to evaluate specifically the carryover that set of 5RM equates to their 1RM.

Velocity Based Training

Dr. Daniel Baker, one of the leading research on this, has found the Velocity (Power) in which a Movement is performed can determine a lifters 1RM.

Before I heard of Velocity Base Training, I base my Opening Attempts on my Power Training Percentages (Velocity)

Many lifter inadvertently use this method in determining Attempts.

It falls in line with Rate of Perceived Exertion.

Attempts calculated on how hard or easy the Warm Up or Attempt was.

Many Powerlifters are not familiar with the the application of it.

They don't use what they do not understand or either the misapply and fail.

 

[Anna C]

No

A 1 RM Max Effort is disruptive. A 1RM is going to take something out of a lifter.

lol, OK apparently I did it again... poor wording on my part.

What I meant to say is, "It is not a good idea to disrupt a well-executed cycle with a random 1RM test or mock meet. Do you agree?"

And I think you are saying, yes, you agree.

So to be clear, I think we are in agreement on this point.

 

[Steve Freides]

What I meant to say is, "It is not a good idea to disrupt a well-executed cycle with a random 1RM test or mock meet. Do you agree?"

I remember more than one competition for which I'd left my best lifting on the training gym floor a week or two earlier.

So I certainly agree with you.

-S-

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

"It is not a good idea to disrupt a well-executed cycle with a random 1RM test or mock meet. Do you agree?"

Yes

I misread that.

If you going to test out a movement, do so in the final week of the Periodization Training Cycle.

 

[watchnerd]

How many days did you give yourself from the last training session? I've tested 1 rep maxes before obviously, but I've never tried to do all 3 of the big lifts the same day.

Qualifying question:

Mock meet in singlet?

Or not in singlet?

Serious question, from a psychological POV.

 

[metaldrummer]

Qualifying question:

Mock meet in singlet?

Or not in singlet?

Serious question, from a psychological POV.

Triple ply denim and slingshot for bench.

 

[silveraw]

Qualifying question:

Mock meet in singlet?

Or not in singlet?

Serious question, from a psychological POV.

Be the guy who shows up to a public gym in a singlet

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Let's Revisit This
One of the issues with many lifter is they based their Training Percentage off their Personal Best 1 Repetition Max.

This is a flawed, inaccurate method. That due to the fact that there are Variance in Strength from one Training Session to the Next.

As per this research...

Not sure if daily fitness fluctuations are a big thing?

Jovanovic and Flanagan published a study in the Journal of Australian Strength & Condition, showing that (1RM) day-to-day fluctuations range from +18% to -18%.

In other words, your back squat 1RM could be 118 kg today, and only 82 kg tomorrow (!).

Source

Autoregulation in strength training:
https://gymaware.com/autoregulation-in-strength-training/

APPLICATIONS OF VELOCITY BASED STRENGTH TRAINING

https://traningslara.se/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/hastighet.mladenjovanovic.pdf

The Bulgarian's 1TM (Training Max) Solution

Bulgarian Olympic Lifters

Their Training Percentage took into account these Strength Variations by basing it off their 1TM (Training Max).

That allowed them to realistically based their Training Percentage on the reality; their Strength for that Training Session.

Velocity Based Training

This is the most accurate method of determine a Training Max for a particular Training Session.

However, the Velocity Training gear isn't cheap.

The Bulgarian Training Max Yardstick

There weren't any Velocity Training Device around during that era.

However, the Bulgarians method of basing there Training Percentage off their 1 Training Max was very effective.

For individual who don't want to spend the money on a Velocity Training Device, the "Old School" Bulgarian Training Max Method works.

AutoRegulation Training

This method amount to varying Training Load/Percentages based how Warm Up.

If the Warm Up are easy, increase the Training Load/Percentage for that Training Session.

If the Warm Up don't feel good, back the Training Load/Percentage down.

 

[Rygor the Swoleman]

If I'm peaking for a TRUE max, my last deadlift session would be about 11-14 days out, last squat session 9-10 days out, and last bench session 7-8 days out. For all of those I would go lower volume compared to normal and no higher than 1 rep of a pretty easy opening attempt (i.e. something I could do for 3-5 reps). That's what I would do based on my own personal experience of lifting for strength for ~20 years and how I've done in many competitions and mock meets.

Now if I'm just doing it to establish a 1 rep training max for each of my lifts, I would do it differently. I'm thinking 5 days would be the most I'd rest before doing that, just so as to heal from previous sessions and allow my CNS to mostly recover from my last training sessions.

After doing this mock meet, make sure you take it easy in the gym for the following week. It will take a LOT out of you. Go lower volume and don't go too heavy at all because your CNS WILL need to time to recover. I guarantee that first session or two back at it WILL feel heavy - way heavier than it should, but just remember that it's normal.

 

[silveraw]

One of the issues with many lifter is they based their Training Percentage off their Personal Best 1 Repetition Max.

This is a flawed, inaccurate method. That due to the fact that there are Variance in Strength from one Training Session to the Next.

An easy and practical way to combat this is to use a training max that is 10% less than your tested 1rm when doing %max based programming.

 

[Steve Freides]

An easy and practical way to combat this is to use a training max that is 10% less than your tested 1rm when doing %max based programming.

Why 10%? Why not just say you're lifting 75% instead of 85%.

-S-

 

[silveraw]

Why 10%? Why not just say you're lifting 75% instead of 85%.

-S-

Jovanovic and Flanagan published a study in the Journal of Australian Strength & Condition, showing that (1RM) day-to-day fluctuations range from +18% to -18%.

To give you a buffer for the fluctuations Kenny mentioned.

If you run a common wave cycle of 70/80/90, then add 2-4% and repeat it allows it to work longer term.

If you ever run a strict %1RM program, the above 90% days can get dicey.

Plus at the end of the day, you %1rm is just a guess anyways. You don’t know what your max is that day unless you test it that day.

 

[Steve Freides]

To give you a buffer for the fluctuations Kenny mentioned.

If you run a common wave cycle of 70/80/90, then add 2-4% and repeat it allows it to work longer term.

If you ever run a strict %1RM program, the above 90% days can get dicey.

Plus at the end of the day, you %1rm is just a guess anyways. You don’t know what your max is that day unless you test it that day.

My 1RM isn't a guess, it's a result - maybe that's the difference.

I know I can do solid lifting up to about 92% 1RM, can maintain most but not quite all of my good form up to 95-96% in training. I rarely train in those ranges, anyway, and have set PR's never going about 88% in training.

As to one's max varying by the day, I confess I don't see the point in knowing what my max is on a non-max-test day, and likewise don't see the point in basing percentages on that. I am completely unfamiliar with "a common wave cycle of 70/80/90" but why not make the cycle 63/72/81 (or 60/70/80) then bump up the percentages? I suspect the answer is that my math is more complicated, but using not-real numbers seems more in need of interpretation to me.

-S-

 

[silveraw]

My 1RM isn't a guess, it's a result - maybe that's the difference.

My point is exactly:

I don't see the point in knowing what my max is on a non-max-test day,

You don't know, it is a guess as you are taking one point in time (whatever your 1rm was tested on one day at a specific time) and extrapolating that as a fixed point for something that is decidedly not fixed (what your actual 1rm is at any other given point and time).

Eg. If you take your 1rm from 4pm on your PL meet, that is not going to be your 1RM the next day at 9am. Ergo, your 1rm is already an approximation, why not skew it a littler lower to account for your bad days.

but using not-real numbers seems more in need of interpretation to me.

It is a framework to figure out your "everyday" max. instead of a PR that you recently hit that you might not be able to hit today.

You know how your 1rm at a meet is different from your 1rm next Tuesday is different from your 1rm after a not great night of sleep? Or as Dan John nicely describes it with his "three different types of maxes".

A Quick Guide to Training Maxes

<p>I’d say this is a dead horse, but I’m sensing a pulse. </p>

www.elitefts.com

I am completely unfamiliar with "a common wave cycle of 70/80/90"

Those are percentages used in 5/3/1 and tactical barbell, two popular barbell programs. And probably two of the best "Do this" programs ever devised.

why not make the cycle 63/72/81 (or 60/70/80)

because 63% +- 18% is still anywhere between 45% and 81% of your max on any given day. If you do 70% using a training max you move the floor of the spread up to 62% by already accounting for natural variation in performance. 62% 1Rm is in the effective training stimulus zone. whereas 45% is more of a warmup weight.

Hopefully that makes sense. It basically just accounts for your natural fluctuations in strength day to day to keep you training with more effective weights. It's not perfect, but neither are we, so it all works out in the end.

 

[Boris Bachmann]

An easy and practical way to combat this is to use a training max that is 10% less than your tested 1rm when doing %max based programming.

These are the things you generally have to learn the HARD way with a lot a lot a lot of frustration... As I've said often here, my eyes glaze over every time I see a program regularly programming reps w. anything over 80% - if I just recalibrate my 90 as 100, then (usually) things go much much better.

To Steve's point, yes, you could just subtract 10% from everything from the git-go, but who does that? No one, because no one wants to feel like they are leaving GAINZ on the table.

 

[John K]

These are the things you generally have to learn the HARD way with a lot a lot a lot of frustration... As I've said often here, my eyes glaze over every time I see a program regularly programming reps w. anything over 80% - if I just recalibrate my 90 as 100, then (usually) things go much much better.

To Steve's point, yes, you could just subtract 10% from everything from the git-go, but who does that? No one, because no one wants to feel like they are leaving GAINZ on the table.

I think that’s been a positive development with Wendler - he emphasizes that if you cannot hit 5 reps with your training max you need to lower it.

 

[metaldrummer]

I've done fine figuring out percentages with the program I was loosely following. Lol For squat I just used 275 - 280 when my all out max was 290. Now since I'm getting stronger I'll just up it to probably 295 or 300 when I start another program. Not rocket science imo.

 

[DocMike]

Personally, when I go for a real max (mock meet would count) I really go for it. I train hard for PL and when I want to know a new max I treat it like a meet. Nothing left. I only do this 3-4 times a year and will use the 3,2,1 0 method to prep for it. Rep maxes are different and I will attempt them whenever but a 1rep max is something to really go after, hard, and seldom

 

[metaldrummer]

Personally, when I go for a real max (mock meet would count) I really go for it. I train hard for PL and when I want to know a new max I treat it like a meet. Nothing left. I only do this 3-4 times a year and will use the 3,2,1 0 method to prep for it. Rep maxes are different and I will attempt them whenever but a 1rep max is something to really go after, hard, and seldom

Yeah, that's pretty much my mentality. It's hard for me to turn that off for regular training as well sometimes. Lol

How long do you think I should take between the different lifts? I have a whole 2 hours if I need it.

 

[Anna C]

@metaldrummer I had a similar thread as this one back in 2017. Some good inputs there if you are interested: Barbell - Testing 1RM on multiple lifts