Other/Mixed Summer training project; help me fix my scapula (so I can do plain old pushups again)

[bluejeff]

I had similar problems 10 years ago. For me personally it was a wrong learned movement pattern of the scapula I got from bouldering. So I tend towards "not enough control and / or activation of some muscles".

What I see on the first two videos is winged scapulae which come from a weak serratus anterior muscle. (easy to google) I did controlled movements like assisted pull up and always feeling where my scapula is during the movement. It´s frustrating work in my opinion. A "gorilla chest" helped me to ease into it.

Some already wrote about posture. Additional to my not activated, weak or not controlled serratus I had a more severe case of thoraic outlet syndrom. (Yes, office worker here.) So it might be that those things influence each other as a not optimal posture in the neck let the neck musscles put pressure on the nerves in it. Pain and different movement patterns could be the result.

I spend about 800 Euro (~800USD) in Germany for two different Osteopath, Personal trainer, Physical Therapist, Chiropractor and was, of course, talking to orthopedist and went under the MRI. No one, just no one of those people could help me, let alone give me a proper diagnosis. Don´t know where you´re from but I only go to guys who are certified by the German Olympic Sports Club. My guy went with the national team to Tokyo. He diagnosed my thoraic outlet syndrom, got rid of blockages and showed me the specific exercises I should do within 45 minutes and I paid 67 Euro. So he was no amount more expensive than other people who probably are focusing more on the elderly...

That said, I ditched those exercises. Why? There never has been anything better for me than the P3 protocol by Geoff Nupert. Period. (It also involves a lot of neck training and fixed a lot if things there) I don´t get it, it´s magic and it helped me to get rid of the rest of my shoulder girdle problems. (3 weeks in.) I cannot guarantee it fixes the scapula but in my opinion it´s worth over the typical therapists.

Thanks. I know how frustrating it is to see lots of specialists and spend a bunch if money and have them all kind of shrug their shoulders…. I don’t think it’s a nerve issue; I don’t have any symptoms associated with that, as far as i know.

 

[Zwuckel]

That´s great to hear!

I just tried to repluicate the winged scapula in the top push up position. So I have my hands straight, narrow stance and then I´m turning my elbow inwards and creating a twisting force inwards with a slight gorilla chest and slightly pushing away from the floor. That, for me, resets the scapula. Maybe that might help you getting a feeling for it and doing push ups with close elbows for the beginning. So basically what @JamesPTA wrote.

Did a quick video for demonstration:

 

[bluejeff]

That´s great to hear!

I just tried to repluicate the winged scapula in the top push up position. So I have my hands straight, narrow stance and then I´m turning my elbow inwards and creating a twisting force inwards with a slight gorilla chest and slightly pushing away from the floor. That, for me, resets the scapula. Maybe that might help you getting a feeling for it and doing push ups with close elbows for the beginning. So basically what @JamesPTA wrote.

Did a quick video for demonstration:

Thanks for the video. Just so I am understanding you correctly: are you twisting your right elbow clockwise and your left elbow counterclockwise? That is, twisting the elbows so the inside pit of the elbow points forward?

 

[Zwuckel]

Yes. And I keep the twisting tension in my arms. As if I´m trying to spin the floor.

 

[bluejeff]

Alright, so far today I was able to try some of the cues suggested by @JamesPTA and @Zwuckel . This was about as “good” as I could get the scap, but……my anterior left shoulder really doesn’t like this. It feels like the humerus is going to pop out the front of the socket.

In my experience dealing with this, it’s like either the front of the shoulder complains and the neck is better, or the shoulder feels good but my neck complains. Sometimes both complain.

If I watch this in slow motion, the left scap is retracting and protracting, though to a lesser degree of protraction than the right. It also barely rotates compared to the right.

Any additional suggestions on cues?

 

[Zwuckel]

I believe I see progress. How did it feel? (mid back)

DISCLAIMER: I have no medicinal certification whatsoever, "just" 20 years experience doing a variety of sports, being curious about it and a cert and job in consulting office ergonomics. So take everything, especially no. 4 with a pound of salt. If possible consult with a top notch physical therapist. One advice I read was asking the local powerlifting / weighlifting club which their go to therapist is.

Five ideas:

1) I think I see quite some forward head posture. So I wouldn´t really rule out TOS or a weak neck for that matter. For me some of your symptoms and the combo of those sound just like mine and could cause more problems than one would think.
Upper traps but especially these ones:

Muscles of the neck: An overview

This article provides an overview of the neck muscles, their anatomy, origins, insertions, actions, and innervation. Click now to learn more at Kenhub!

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"Thoracic outlet syndrome (TOS) is a group of conditions in which there's pressure on blood vessels or nerves in the area between the neck and shoulder. This space is known as the thoracic outlet. Compression of the blood vessels and nerves can cause shoulder and neck pain." - Mayo Clinic

2) On a similar matter. From the look of it your rhomboids might be underdeveloped. Lay on your stomach, grab a 1kg weight, stretch your arms as forward as possible and lift it. Hold it. And again. Worth a try.

3) Can you try again with an even narrower stance? Like triceps parallel to body. Might isolate the problem a bit more.

4) When changing / correcting your posture and movement patterns it often hurts. Your body was in a "wrong" / adapted position probably for years. Therefore muscle get weaker that should be stronger and others stronger that naturally should be weaker. E.g. just at the beginning of the year I realized how s***ty I was sitting at my desk job. Sitting more upright and getting there created tension, knots and uncomfortable feelings to a certain extend for about 6 weeks.

5) Could you try out the OS exercise @3letterslong posted? I think that could help additionally.

 

[bluejeff]

) I think I see quite some forward head posture.

Tried some focusing on that. Seem a bit better maybe?

When changing / correcting your posture and movement patterns it often hurts. Your body was in a "wrong" / adapted position probably for years. Therefore muscle get weaker that should be stronger and others stronger that naturally should be weaker. E.g. just at the beginning of the year I realized how s***ty I was sitting at my desk job. Sitting more upright and getting there created tension, knots and uncomfortable feelings to a certain extend for about 6 weeks.

I know what you’re describing, but the pain I was describing was definitely “bad” pain, in the joint, not just like my muscles weren’t used to it or something.

Could you try out the OS exercise @3letterslong posted? I think that could help additionally.

I do that one a lot actually. I like it; it feels good. Just doesn’t seem to carry over to push-ups.

 

[bluejeff]

On a similar matter. From the look of it your rhomboids might be underdeveloped. Lay on your stomach, grab a 1kg weight, stretch your arms as forward as possible and lift it. Hold it. And again. Worth a try.

I've started to do this exercise again. Video is focused on my shoulder blades, but what I am doing is essentially a snow-angel on my stomach, trying to reach out as far as I can, and up away from the floor as high as I can. They feel pretty good (though hard, as I haven't done this kind of work in a while). Interestingly, my right scap lags on these, even though it's the "problem free" side.

 

[bluejeff]

Alright, last upload of the day:

I used these a lot during shoulder surgery rehab on the suggestion of my old gym "boss." They feel pretty good, but if you zoom in, slow mo, etc, you can see how the left side is not moving quite the same as the right. First five reps are with neutral shoulder position, and then midway through I switch to intenionally doing them trying to maintain protraction. The issue is more pronounced in the protracted version, I think.

 

[3letterslong]

I do that one a lot actually. I like it; it feels good. Just doesn’t seem to carry over to push-ups.

Have you tried to duplicate it during the "seated" position in rocking? It didn't change my life much, either, until I learned how to hang my bodyweight off of those muscle when I'm in the pulled-back position of rocking. I think that doing it as a movement instead of a static hold was essential to strengthening everything the muscles were capable of, including my control over them.

Sorry, not trying to pester you, but duplicating that scap exercise during rocking was when all my work started exploding.

 

[Boris Bachmann]

I've started to do this exercise again. Video is focused on my shoulder blades, but what I am doing is essentially a snow-angel on my stomach, trying to reach out as far as I can, and up away from the floor as high as I can. They feel pretty good (though hard, as I haven't done this kind of work in a while). Interestingly, my right scap lags on these, even though it's the "problem free" side.

I feel like these are more in line with what's going to help you w. your push-ups. The winging and range of motion your scaps go through when doing push-ups is something I'd have to consciously try to do (and even then I'm not sure I could and I was a swimmer) - as watchnerd and I suggested earlier in the thread, adding middle and upper back muscle will make a difference and probably address what I see as some hypermobility.

 

[watchnerd]

Alright, last upload of the day:

I used these a lot during shoulder surgery rehab on the suggestion of my old gym "boss." They feel pretty good, but if you zoom in, slow mo, etc, you can see how the left side is not moving quite the same as the right. First five reps are with neutral shoulder position, and then midway through I switch to intenionally doing them trying to maintain protraction. The issue is more pronounced in the protracted version, I think.

NGL, this video gave me the heebie jeebies.

I do Lu raises pretty regularly, and right off the back, it looks like you upper back is rounded the entire time you're doing these, with typical 'nerd neck'.

Are you still doing front squats?

 

[bluejeff]

Have you tried to duplicate it during the "seated" position in rocking? It didn't change my life much, either, until I learned how to hang my bodyweight off of those muscle when I'm in the pulled-back position of rocking. I think that doing it as a movement instead of a static hold was essential to strengthening everything the muscles were capable of, including my control over them.

Sorry, not trying to pester you, but duplicating that scap exercise during rocking was when all my work started exploding.

Not pestering at all! Do you mean when you are "rocked back?"

NGL, this video gave me the heebie jeebies.

I do Lu raises pretty regularly, and right off the back, it looks like you upper back is rounded the entire time you're doing these, with typical 'nerd neck'.

Are you still doing front squats?

Noted! I will keep that in mind next time and see how things change. I just had my girlfriend confirm after watching me do a couple, and she was commenting that she thinks I slouch and round (in general) more than I think I do.

I am still doing front squats, though it's been a week or so since I've done any. I have been gearing up for finals at school and have been trying to save some energy (and get some input on this shoulder issue). Honestly what feels really good is the combo of behind the neck presses and front squats. The only issue is that sometimes the BTN presses elicit some pinchy-ness in the problem shoulder, so I have to be sparse and careful with them. As a side note, you like them, don't you? Do you have any cues for them you like? I've just sort of played with the movement to see what seems to feel best.

as watchnerd and I suggested earlier in the thread, adding middle and upper back muscle will make a difference and probably address what I see as some hypermobility.

I have added more ring rows, and plan to add other things as well. That's an interesting observation, and it's kind of something I have thought of. It almost feels like parts of the left shoulder girdle "turn off" and the whole thing sort of ends up "hanging" off my body in certain positions.

 

[3letterslong]

Not pestering at all! Do you mean when you are "rocked back?"

https://originalstrength.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/OS-Rocking.png

The position on the right. You can see it's pretty similar to the static scap exercise in that video. I spent many, many months learning how activate my scap like in the scapula activation video and how to "hang" my weight off the targeted muscle group. Now I'm advanced to the point that I'm rocking with knees off the ground and can control which part of my back carries the weight: scapula muscles, middle back, upper back, everything.

I've recently graduated to leopard crawling like this or doing a kind of rocking knee-raised bird dog so the target muscles can carry even more of my bodyweight.

 

[lais817]

Not sure if this will help, but I've found that doing waiters presses or bottoms up presses with a KB are fantastic for serratus anterior activation.

 

[bluejeff]

Not sure if this will help, but I've found that doing waiters presses or bottoms up presses with a KB are fantastic for serratus anterior activation.

Thanks. Yes I agree! I think perhaps I had some extra layers of “dysfunction” on top of things last I tried them. They seemed like they would be good, but I still had issues. Maybe it was just too much to use a 16kg bell at the time. I might revisit them….

 

[Boris Bachmann]

I went back to your very first post and I think you might consider just reworking your push-up positioning and trying to build strength that way, rather than doing everything but push-ups.
As you set up for the push-up, you initially have good scapula positioning, but then you shift your feet and hips and wing the scapula before beginning the set - the scaps stay winged from then on. Can you do any push-ups while the scaps remain "stuck to your back pockets" as they are in this pic?

 

[bluejeff]

I went back to your very first post and I think you might consider just reworking your push-up positioning and trying to build strength that way, rather than doing everything but push-ups.
As you set up for the push-up, you initially have good scapula positioning, but then you shift your feet and hips and wing the scapula before beginning the set - the scaps stay winged from then on. Can you do any push-ups while the scaps remain "stuck to your back pockets" as they are in this pic?

View attachment 24862

That is what I would prefer to do! A lot of the shifting around in my videos is just me trying to get things in a position that feels "comfortable," if that means anything.

What I have found is that I can mostly mimic the scapular position in that screenshot...IF I do them concentric-only, from a dead start. Even then, when I have looked at the footage in slow motion, the left scap is still not the "same" as the right. Unfortunately, I don't think I have any of that footage saved. I will try and get some footage tomorrow when I am more fresh, though!

I should NOTE:

In the past I have made comments about going through a movement disorder with my right hand (focal dystonia). The doctor (as in, PhD) whose programs and research I followed to rehabilitate the condition had said that it wouldn't be uncommon to find similar issues in other areas of the body.

I was originally right-handed, and my right hand was my dystonic hand. So, I had to learn to "be left-handed." I am almost 100% certain this has to do with the scapula issue. I have to do almost all my schoolwork left-handed. I can write lefty just fine now (after some ~8 ish years) but I think it has ingrained some kind of "unnatural" postural compensation. That is, I am a "right handed" person who writes left handed, and spends a lot of time writing lefty.

All that said, a part of dystonia, that I can attest to, is that some of your muscles "forget" how to activate. That is exactly what this scapula thing feels like. It's like if I get into a pushup position and descend, my scapular muscles are "blind;" they don't know how to activate or work. It's almost like there's a position where I can't feel them at all, and so my body reverts to a position where it feels something, even if that something is "dysfunctional." If I start at the bottom and very slowly build tension, I can get them to "work" in that the scap sticks to my back, but ...not.... quite... in the right position. If I try to slowly descend, the left scap doesn't move the way it's "supposed to."

Again, I wil l try to film again tomorrow (or sometime soon) to show what happens when I do these things.

I want to extend my thanks and appreciation to everyone who has given me input so far. It's been a frustrating and long struggle, and some of the input here has been helpful in the last couple weeks or so. I want to give some of the suggestions some time to see how they treat me, and then give some updates on those things in particular.

 

[Antti]

I'm just curious, since you film your sets and have tried many things: If you just try to forget how things feel while doing push-ups, and do a set as close to failure as you can get, do things change in your back change during it as you approach failure?

 

[bluejeff]

I'm just curious, since you film your sets and have tried many things: If you just try to forget how things feel while doing push-ups, and do a set as close to failure as you can get, do things change in your back change during it as you approach failure?

I haven’t tried that specifically, but when I do try to do a number of “hard sets” of push-up variations (so things like weighted push-ups or harder variations) my neck tends to get tight after… so I’m thinking no. If I’m feeling adventurous I suppose I might try it. I’m curious why you suggest that; maybe something is overactive or something?