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Other/Mixed Summer training project; help me fix my scapula (so I can do plain old pushups again)

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
Boris Bachmann said:
I went back to your very first post and I think you might consider just reworking your push-up positioning and trying to build strength that way, rather than doing everything but push-ups.
As you set up for the push-up, you initially have good scapula positioning, but then you shift your feet and hips and wing the scapula before beginning the set - the scaps stay winged from then on. Can you do any push-ups while the scaps remain "stuck to your back pockets" as they are in this pic?

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Allllright, I finally had free time to upload a video to demonstrate. This is concentric-only pushups. The scap stays in place much better, but the front of that shoulder (anterior glenohumeral joint area) feels kind of "pinchy" or like something is being strained when I do this. I don't know if that's linked to the scap, but it tends to be the case.



Additionally, I have been doing those prone "swimmers" that I posted pretty much every day, sometimes up to 4-5 sets of 10. They seem to help get the scap in a place where it feels more comfortable afterwards, though it has yet to translate to horizontal pushups.
 
bluejeff said:
I haven’t tried that specifically, but when I do try to do a number of “hard sets” of push-up variations (so things like weighted push-ups or harder variations) my neck tends to get tight after… so I’m thinking no. If I’m feeling adventurous I suppose I might try it. I’m curious why you suggest that; maybe something is overactive or something?
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It would just be interesting to see what your body sees as the optimal way to move when challenged vs how you yourself perceive it should be done.

Why do you think the neck gets tight? A pinched nerve? Overactive muscles? Unused muscles?

Often fatigue or load teaches the movement well. But there's a difference between a dysfunction and learning technique.
 
Antti said:
Why do you think the neck gets tight? A pinched nerve? Overactive muscles? Unused muscles?
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My theory is that when the scapula isn’t working properly, other muscles in the area are trying to pick up the slack (maybe the levator?) I don’t have any symptoms usually associated with nerve issues, as far as I’m aware. No pins and needles or loss of sensation anywhere else. I think some of my scapular muscles aren’t activating, if i had to take an educated guess. I think it’s also possible that there is/was some anterior instability or an injury that body is/has been trying to avoid.

I’ve also noticed that since doing some upper back drills, that the resting position of the scap feels better. I think it’s been wanting to roll up and forward more than I thought it was.
 
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Hey man!

I've had the same issue in the past and worked with a bunch of clients that have similar issues with either winging, or being stuck in protraction. As other have said, build more muscle, do more serious upper back work and things that will get your scaps through their full ROM. It looked like you weren't able to get fully protracted, which could be why your scaps want to do their own thing. If you can find heavy loaded exercises that force you to pin your scaps down you should see some improvement.

A couple exercises I'd recommend, in order of my own personal importance/preference:

1. Head supported Dumbbell Rows - these are amazing, they let you work a strict horizontal pull and should also create some nice tension in your neck muscles - Cues are "long spine," and "reach your knuckles all the way down to the floor". You want to feel the muscles in between your shoulders stretching bigggg. These humbled me when my coach put them in my program last training block.

2. Barbell Shrugs - Stupid Heavy, Power Shrugs, use straps, a belt, whatever. Make these safely sloppy and fun, use your body and cheat a little. The idea here would be to completely overload the traps from upper to middle to lower. Work up to a weight you think is ridiculous and do them there. I would shy away from a trap bar or dumbbells because we want you to be forced to keep your scaps depressed and protracted.

3. Chest Supported Lat Pulldown in protraction - Set up a bench almost vertical, seat facing away from the cable machine. Sit reverse with you chest against the backrest, hang your shoulder around the side of it and do a cable pulldown while keeping your elbow aggressively pushed forward. You will have limited range of motion but we want to keep you pulling in the range where your scap stays flush against the ribcage. On the eccentric, try to push your elbow forward and up. You should feel a wild stretch in your lat.


Hope that helps bud!
 
BrendanF said:
Chest Supported Lat Pulldown in protraction - Set up a bench almost vertical, seat facing away from the cable machine. Sit reverse with you chest against the backrest, hang your shoulder around the side of it and do a cable pulldown while keeping your elbow aggressively pushed forward. You will have limited range of motion but we want to keep you pulling in the range where your scap stays flush against the ribcage. On the eccentric, try to push your elbow forward and up. You should feel a wild stretch in your lat.
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Thanks for the recommendations. I’m a bit confused about this last one though. Is it like doing a lat pull down but like the cables are pulling the shoulders back, and you’re trying to keep them forward? (If that makes sense)
 
To qoute my PRI mentor: I do not care which of your muscles are tight, or what positions of yours are incorrect, I simply need to reset your brain, so that your brain knows where your muscles and joints are supposed to be, and most of your problems should be resolved.

His methods are mostly based on neuroscience, which may seem strange, but are highly effective. I would share some of them here so that you may try and see if they work for you.

Get a peaked cap, and cut the left half of the brim. This inhibits the input of visual signals from upper right.

Get some clinical cotton (or any cotton that is cheap) and use some to block your right nostril, as well as your right ear. This inhibits the input of smelling and hearing from the right.

Do your selected movement of test.

Lay down, put your phone by your left ear and play your favourite music. After that, take a walk outside. You may revieve some gazes (for wearing that strange half hat).

Then test again, and see if anything has improved. I trust you would be amazed at the results these bizarre yet effective methods bring about.
 
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Luwuwu said:
To qoute my PRI mentor: I do not care which of your muscles are tight, or what positions of yours are incorrect, I simply need to reset your brain, so that your brain knows where your muscles and joints are supposed to be, and most of your problems should be resolved.

His methods are mostly based on neuroscience, which may seem strange, but are highly effective. I would share some of them here so that you may try and see if they work for you.

Get a peaked cap, and cut the left half of the brim. This inhibits the input of visual signals from upper right.

Get some clinical cotton (or any cotton that is cheap) and use some to block your right nostril, as well as your right ear. This inhibits the input of smelling and hearing from the right.

Do your selected movement of test.

Lay down, put your phone by your left ear and play your favourite music. After that, take a walk outside. You may revieve some gazes (for wearing that strange half hat).

Then test again, and see if anything has improved. I trust you would be amazed at the results these bizarre yet effective methods.
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Thank you.

I’ve not tried anything like you describe, but I think I know what it’s getting at. I definitely have a harder time “sensing” with my left side. I’ve learned a little bit of PRI, just enough to know the big concepts and a few of the specific ones. So I know I have a harder time loading my left leg, I have less internal rotation on my right side…. And some other stuff.

In fact, PRI principles have driven most of my progress with this issue. A few years back, it was significantly worse.

Also having dealt with focal dystonia, I am very well aware of how …uh …not having awareness of a body part can affect things. Like I wrote in a post here somewhere, it’s like I can feel what I need to feel for the left side to work better. I hadn’t considered straight up sensory modification.

I will give it a try….
 
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Hang On! The Forgotten Anti-Gravity Exercise Everyone Should Start Doing | StrongFirst

Improve your shoulder mobility, shoulder stability, posture, and total body strength with this simple yet underutilized move.
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One Good Rep: How to Perform the Perfect Pushup | StrongFirst

Done well, the push-up will give great strength gains and can be done anywhere at any time. But first, we need to make sure you can do one great repetition.
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Hi, these are the things that did and are still helping me with my shoulder. Not complicated, very effective. Also I took few lessons with Strong First coach and I recommend that.
 
silveraw said:
Are you actively pulling yourself down like a row?
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Not in those reps. I was trying to push down through the hands/shoulders as hard as I could. I can try that later today, when I will test a few cues I've been thinking about.

Some newer thoughts I've been having:

The problem scap seems to want to rest away from my midline. Some of the upper back stuff I have been doing has shown me that's not fully "on my back" in that it maybe wants to elevate and internally rotate excessively. By that I mean internal rotation of the scapula, not the humerus. It tends to protract and retract, but not rotate. I think this might be due to a number of reasons:

- upper left posterior ribs aren't expanded/expanding enough. This could create space between the scap and ribs
-the serratus isn't working properly, either because it is "asleep" or because of the rib/scap orientation.
-maybe some trapezius dysfunction?

The good news is that overhead work is feeling better than it was. It was already about 80%, enough to train, carefully. But the upper back stuff (prone drills, in particular) has helped. Behind the neck presses feel better, and I've found handstand pushups to feel better as well.

I wouldn't care as much if I was asymmetrical if everything felt okay!!
 
bluejeff said:
Not in those reps. I was trying to push down through the hands/shoulders as hard as I could. I can try that later today, when I will test a few cues I've been thinking about.
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I was trying to replicate what your scaps were doing and if I "sag down" into the bottom position I can do it, but if I actively pull myself down and activate the back I don't flare as much.
 
silveraw said:
I was trying to replicate what your scaps were doing and if I "sag down" into the bottom position I can do it, but if I actively pull myself down and activate the back I don't flare as much.
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When you "pull" yourself down, does this mean pulling the arms towards the body like a pullup or row? I've read this cue all over SF literature, but it never felt "right" to me. Will definitely try it though.
 
bluejeff said:
When you "pull" yourself down, does this mean pulling the arms towards the body like a pullup or row? I've read this cue all over SF literature, but it never felt "right" to me. Will definitely try it though.
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Basically try to activate your middle back and lats.
 
Alright, this one is for @silveraw
Trying the “pulling myself down” cue. I swear I can feel my mid back contracting (though I’m not sure that should mean squeezing the scaps together?)



Also filmed a couple other cues.

This one is narrower hand placement, “just inside shoulder width,” as suggested in the SF article.


And finally, this one is using a cue that has somewhat helped me. It definitely makes handstand push-ups feel better. The cue is to maintain pressure on the inside of the hand, sort of just under the index finger and kind of between the thumb and index finger.


As I am sure is apparent….there was not really any change. The narrow placement sort of feels better….but after doing a handful of reps, I can still feel the neck thing happening a bit. Super frustrating. It’s like my body is “shaped” differently or something, which might indicate the ribcage thing.

I realize I likely will have to find something and stick to it for a while to see a significant change, but in my experience, if a good cue is found, it has pretty immediate effects. It’s also possible I’m just not doing some of these cues correctly.

Again, I really appreciate all the input, suggestions, and feedback.
 
At this point this thread is turning into me making a public shoulder "rehab" log, in case anyone experiences similar.

That said, I decided to play with some pike pushups this morning.


This is from January 2021. Notice the difference in the scaps. What the #$%# happened?



The interesting thing is....I had WORSE neck pain back then. Like, so bad I would get headaches sometimes. I have read and seen information from Greg Lehman and others that scapular dyskinesis has actually been shown to be LESS correlated with pain than we used to think. That's a whole tangent thread and debate on its own. It is interesting though.

All I want is to train these moves without repurcussions. Handstand pushup is 80-90% okay. Pike pushups are slightly less so, and regular pushups are the worst.
 
watchnerd said:
I think you should stop filming yourself for 2-3 months and just go by feel.

Nothing is going to get fixed in one week

So like Luke learning to lightsaber fight blind, cut the visual cues and focus on feeling it
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I agree. thanks for the reminder. Just wanted to get as much "evidence" as I could in case it was helpful for anyone with an experienced eye. In the past, things have always just, well, felt better when I ditch the camera. The frustrating thing was just that after like a year of training that way, there was no improvement. But I do agree. The camera tends to drive "movement anxiety," which I can certainly do without.
 
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