3letterslong
Level 6 Valued Member
Huh. I remember you posting about how springy they made you. That's a dang good idea.
Other/Mixed New training block, Isometrics as primary resistance training
- Thread starter North Coast Miller
- Start date
Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
Huh. I remember you posting about how springy they made you. That's a dang good idea.
C. Schwartz
Level 2 Valued Member
I really recommend it. Went in with no expectations. I don't care about hypertrophy but that was noticeable too.
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
Couple thoughts coming back to this observation.
If you use a board/deck for an anchor, you can shift around under tension and feel the recruitment pattern shifting with. This is a solid way to target muscles you aren't feeling initially.
Dynamics can be used for this as well. For upper body, you can overload the movement against shallow squat or hinge, forcing the muscle to change length.
Recruitment patterns will change again depending on if you hit it fast or slow, with a bump in total recruitment at higher initial contraction speed.
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3letterslong
Level 6 Valued Member
In the last 1-2 years I've come a long way in fixing up imbalances and dysfunction that have been plaguing me for years and I think the last thing I have left to fix is just a matter of muscle control, which is why I want to try these isometrics again. For instance, I can flex my chest and biceps so strongly that they start trembling and, if i do a push-up, I can flex them hard every inch of the movement. I do not have the same kind of muscle control over my uppper back or shoulder muscles, where I can't squeeze them so intensely that they start shaking and if I try to manually flex them hard during a row, I quickly lose control over something.
So, yeah, I hope to establish an initial baseline of control and then practice controlling tension over these various isometric drills (ramping up, dynamics, forced eccentrics, jolts, etc.).
I think I'd also like to try incorporating yielding isometrics because they've always rewarded me well (in terms of strength). I would think a yielding iso, taken to failure, plus some metabolic activity would be pretty similar in terms of results.
3letterslong
Level 6 Valued Member
I'm going to try them for at least two weeks, maybe longer. Did you feel they took several days to recover from? If I can only do them 1-2 times a week, I might be doing them for much longer than two weeks.
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3letterslong
Level 6 Valued Member
You know what I realized? I might still be able to have it all. I could start with MVC overcoming isometrics, just one or two holds where I focus on hitting sufficient tension, then switch to Extreme Isometrics + drops and rebounds... and then do a HIIT workout the next day. I remember in this thread Miller said HIIT will have the same effect if it's done within 24 hours.
I think I'd really have to learn more about drops and rebounds, though, because I've heard Dan Fichter and other sports coaches say they only work once, but yet Jay Schroeder has talked about his athletes doing them constantly for months or years.
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
A lot of the plyo and depth drops are done with the extreme isos IIRC. It is a perpetual potentiation/post potentiation mechanism. There is a lot less out there re specifics than one might hope to find. And keep in mind, a lot of the programming is intended to produce sport specific performance response, in conjunction with a battery of training modalities.
I highly recommend trawling through 'just fly sorts' podcasts. The host is a huge fan of isometrics generally and Schroeder specifically.
I highly recommend trawling through 'just fly sorts' podcasts. The host is a huge fan of isometrics generally and Schroeder specifically.
C. Schwartz
Level 2 Valued Member
Yeah, it took some adjusting too, as I was used to doing S&S daily. That’s what I took up running and more mobility work. I do isos on Tuesdays and Fridays, running and stretching every other day.
3letterslong
Level 6 Valued Member
Last night I did my first Isometric workout with a forearm forklift. This thing was AMAZING for squats and deadlifts, lightyears better than me trying to grip a towel. Otherwise, I'm in a tough spot. I feel like the 90 second Maxwell / TSC holds are going to be essential for me to start out with to get the control necessary for overcoming MVC efforts, but they're really draining and I can see them interfering with my other physical activities. Which is strange, because I don't remember Extreme Isometrics being anywhere near this draining.
I might have to find a hold time that lets me practise what I need, but is easy to recover from.
I might have to find a hold time that lets me practise what I need, but is easy to recover from.
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
Make sure you breathe throughout. Holding breath or a Valsalva will be incredibly taxing for no benefit.
3letterslong
Level 6 Valued Member
Huh. I have no idea what my breathing was like, but breathing is a huge part of getting through Extreme Isos. I wonder if you just hit the nail on the head.
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
The best thing you can do is run a timer with your breathing under exertion, and going forwars just count breaths per instead of using a timer.
onlyisometrics
Level 2 Valued Member
another idea for trying to dial in form / control for overcoming isos (unless i’ve misread what you’re attempting) is to just do them for 10 to 20 second holds at 60 to 70% effort. really find the high tension - point of most resistance - form wise, while also respecting your anatomy. increase the effort over a week.
my take on breathing: i do 2 / 2 tempo, and i increase effort - “surge” on the out breath. so…
max effort breath out for 2;
hold effort breath in for 2;
increase effort breath out for 2;
hold effort breath out for 2
repeat for 10 or 20 seconds
breathing through nose whole time
just some ideas
my take on breathing: i do 2 / 2 tempo, and i increase effort - “surge” on the out breath. so…
max effort breath out for 2;
hold effort breath in for 2;
increase effort breath out for 2;
hold effort breath out for 2
repeat for 10 or 20 seconds
breathing through nose whole time
just some ideas
Training for Life
Level 6 Valued Member
re @3letterslong
Although I do believe that the system involving extreme isos holds true value, and perhaps contains a lot of untapped potential to be discovered via testing and research, I think there's an overemphasis, even some kind of magic aura, around holding the extreme isometric positions. If we look at some materials claiming to be Schroeder's programming, and how people like Rob Assise use extreme isos, the isos are just a single component, not necessarily meant to be a standalone solution for everything. Certainly you start off with only isos, but then you progress to a wider array of tools.
Though I would categorize the extreme iso as something like a pseudo-overcoming isometric rather than a pure yielding one (you are pulling down with MVC, not holding and resisting gravity), and thus drop it in the whereabouts of the solutions @northcoastmiller is using, I would not mistake an extreme iso hold for what he is doing. What @North Coast Miller is doing clearly works, and by interchanging the short duration overcoming isos to long duration extreme isos, you are essentially doing a different thing.
If I may, I would propose something in the lines of:
- Overcoming ISOs per Millers instructions
- ...followed by either alternating extreme isos and altitude drops or rebounds continuously back and forth until failure
- ...or just altitude drops or rebounds until failure
This would act as the metabolic component. I would perhaps do two to three sets of the extreme iso, altitude drop or rebound with minimal rest to ensure each set I reach failure faster and faster.
Unsure how to program the metabolics, but guessing one would do all the overcoming isos first, followed by the necessary extreme isos, drops, and rebounds. Alternatively this could be done the next day, although I would probably rather do extreme iso holds only (to speed recovery). You could probably get away with doing a lunge or squat variation, a push-up, and a pull-up. I would also include the standing hamstring, although not necessarily every session. Mixing the variations from session to session, while still putting emphasis on the staples, would make sense in my head.
Although I do believe that the system involving extreme isos holds true value, and perhaps contains a lot of untapped potential to be discovered via testing and research, I think there's an overemphasis, even some kind of magic aura, around holding the extreme isometric positions. If we look at some materials claiming to be Schroeder's programming, and how people like Rob Assise use extreme isos, the isos are just a single component, not necessarily meant to be a standalone solution for everything. Certainly you start off with only isos, but then you progress to a wider array of tools.
Though I would categorize the extreme iso as something like a pseudo-overcoming isometric rather than a pure yielding one (you are pulling down with MVC, not holding and resisting gravity), and thus drop it in the whereabouts of the solutions @northcoastmiller is using, I would not mistake an extreme iso hold for what he is doing. What @North Coast Miller is doing clearly works, and by interchanging the short duration overcoming isos to long duration extreme isos, you are essentially doing a different thing.
If I may, I would propose something in the lines of:
- Overcoming ISOs per Millers instructions
- ...followed by either alternating extreme isos and altitude drops or rebounds continuously back and forth until failure
- ...or just altitude drops or rebounds until failure
This would act as the metabolic component. I would perhaps do two to three sets of the extreme iso, altitude drop or rebound with minimal rest to ensure each set I reach failure faster and faster.
Unsure how to program the metabolics, but guessing one would do all the overcoming isos first, followed by the necessary extreme isos, drops, and rebounds. Alternatively this could be done the next day, although I would probably rather do extreme iso holds only (to speed recovery). You could probably get away with doing a lunge or squat variation, a push-up, and a pull-up. I would also include the standing hamstring, although not necessarily every session. Mixing the variations from session to session, while still putting emphasis on the staples, would make sense in my head.
3letterslong
Level 6 Valued Member
I haven't been expressing myself well, so please be patient while I try to explain. I'm not trying to turn Miller's isometrics into Extreme Isos. I just love Extreme Isos and finding a way to do both would be perfect for me, but that's a different discussion than what I'm trying to do now with longer hold times.
I've now done my first two isometric workouts (overcoming, as Miller prescribes) and it's clear I need to do some work before I can do them properly. Right now, if I try to tense for a MVC (or use jolts and pulses), some muscles will fire strongly and some won't. The past two workouts, I've been playing with longer hold times to get the muscle control I need so that I can use six basic exercises to have all the involved muscles accomplish a productive MVC.
I have a lot of faith in what North Coast Miller is doing and am not trying to mess up his system. It's just that the last time I tried, it never worked out productively, and I now realize it's because I've still got some tendencies for strong muscles to do the work while weaker ones sit out. I think training myself to have greater muscle control will require longer, sub-maximal hold times as I get a feel for what's going on.
Apologies to everyone if it sounded like I was trying to "improve" Miller's system. I'm trying to improve me so I can use it properly.
3letterslong
Level 6 Valued Member
another idea for trying to dial in form / control for overcoming isos (unless i’ve misread what you’re attempting) is to just do them for 10 to 20 second holds at 60 to 70% effort. really find the high tension - point of most resistance - form wise, while also respecting your anatomy. increase the effort over a week.
my take on breathing: i do 2 / 2 tempo, and i increase effort - “surge” on the out breath. so…
max effort breath out for 2;
hold effort breath in for 2;
increase effort breath out for 2;
hold effort breath out for 2
repeat for 10 or 20 seconds
breathing through nose whole time
just some ideas
Yeah, that's what I'm trying to do -- build control so this will be effective. It looks like I was unclear about that. My most productive training has always been sub-maximal work that depended on volume because all my muscles were in the effort. Whenever I've tried to go heavy, 1-3RM territory, it takes a lot of concentration and calculated accessory work to make sure that my weaker muscles aren't dropping out of the effort.
I think doing everything be feel is a good idea. My first workout, I tried to do timed sets, but the second workout went much better when I focused on getting proper muscle activation and then ending the set when it started getting sloppy. Miller suggested counting breaths instead of using timed sets and I think that's a really good idea. I'll experiment with your idea about surging on the out breath. All the striking martial arts I've done had me breathing out on the strikes for just that purpose, so I think it'll come to me easily.
Training for Life
Level 6 Valued Member
Apologies are on my part, I did not mean that you were necessarily messing up the system, but rather just wanted to point out that substituting the overcoming isos with extreme isos would be a different thing. Did not mean to come off like I was taking names
Training for Life
Level 6 Valued Member
Continuing on contraction duration.
I noticed previously that I personally seemed to get the most activation when I went 10-20 seconds full blast with the extreme positions. Anything shorter and I didn’t get everything active yet, longer and things started to go offline. Focus was always on getting the contraction to spread through the chain as much as possible (by pulling down to the stretch better and with more muscle), with the contraction ramping up to as hard as possible. Similar to what @onlyisometrics described.
My absolute favorite session was doing this on the minute for many sets, alternating sides every rep on unilateral positions. This was after many months of all sorts of extreme isos, though, including some runs of the rather gritty every-set-to-failure-for-weeks stuff that came in the Evocode app.
To be honesr I am still confused on how can one go maximal contraction and really stay on for minutes. Furthest I ever got in the lunge, giving it all to the contraction (or pull, which it rather is), has to be something like a minute. Just holding the contraction without going balls to the wall I got to the proximity of three minutes, but I am really unsure whether that is the way or not. I found some ancient forum or news discussion with people speculating that there are two types of extreme iso holds: absolute maximal contraction which always cuts off at 30-45 seconds, and ”just holding the contraction” which goes up to minutes.
I noticed previously that I personally seemed to get the most activation when I went 10-20 seconds full blast with the extreme positions. Anything shorter and I didn’t get everything active yet, longer and things started to go offline. Focus was always on getting the contraction to spread through the chain as much as possible (by pulling down to the stretch better and with more muscle), with the contraction ramping up to as hard as possible. Similar to what @onlyisometrics described.
My absolute favorite session was doing this on the minute for many sets, alternating sides every rep on unilateral positions. This was after many months of all sorts of extreme isos, though, including some runs of the rather gritty every-set-to-failure-for-weeks stuff that came in the Evocode app.
To be honesr I am still confused on how can one go maximal contraction and really stay on for minutes. Furthest I ever got in the lunge, giving it all to the contraction (or pull, which it rather is), has to be something like a minute. Just holding the contraction without going balls to the wall I got to the proximity of three minutes, but I am really unsure whether that is the way or not. I found some ancient forum or news discussion with people speculating that there are two types of extreme iso holds: absolute maximal contraction which always cuts off at 30-45 seconds, and ”just holding the contraction” which goes up to minutes.
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3letterslong
Level 6 Valued Member
It sounds like there's a lot of debate about those issues. The one that makes the most sense to me is treat them as two separate things because the short, maximal holds will never become easier, you'll just pull further and further each time. As you do so, your ability to do the max duration holds will increase (which you don't try to hold maximally). BUT, I really think I get a lot out of trying to hold maximal tensions for long periods of time.
This is all because so much of this system is mired in mystery (and deliberately so -- i was really not impressed with Schroeder's app).
One thing I've heard several people say, though, is to not alternate sides between sets. Apparently you're supposed to do them all on one side before switching to the other. I was doing the same thing as you.
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
@3letterslong
A few thoughts based on what you're seeing. These are among the kinds of concerns I identified when I did my initial write-ups as I tried to determine why so many people have trouble with iso.
- use a means of resistance that is absolute. Do not use towels, doorframes, chairs etc. These are fine for dabbling but not for making a study of it. A strap and board is so fundamental even the isochain still uses it. And the design goes back almost unchanged to the Hoffann "isometric strength builder" in a box. My deck uses the same principle in a barbell size. Trap yourself between two immovable points that do not rely on body mass for bracing.
- exhale hard on exertion, hold tension on the inhale.
- If doing pulse shots, valsalva the spike and exhale as you ramp/hold tension behind the spike. Relax on inhale. Hit it fast with a 30% pre-load.
- do not worry about the sensation of this or that getting in on the exertion. Over time you will develop the skill of isometric exertion. Newbies don't just grab a barbell and exert like they will after 8 weeks of hitting it. If things aren't starting to fall into place after 4 consistent weeks then you might be a hard case and other approaches needed. A break in period is unavoidable. I was very familiar with iso and it still took several weeks to "season" in.
From my initial notes:
*Regardless of current fitness status, it can take several weeks of training before one is liable to feel that they are able to effectively apply isometric force with good posture and breathing. *
If you're already doing these things for a month and having trouble, then getting creative makes sense. Otherwise, it does not.
A few thoughts based on what you're seeing. These are among the kinds of concerns I identified when I did my initial write-ups as I tried to determine why so many people have trouble with iso.
- use a means of resistance that is absolute. Do not use towels, doorframes, chairs etc. These are fine for dabbling but not for making a study of it. A strap and board is so fundamental even the isochain still uses it. And the design goes back almost unchanged to the Hoffann "isometric strength builder" in a box. My deck uses the same principle in a barbell size. Trap yourself between two immovable points that do not rely on body mass for bracing.
- exhale hard on exertion, hold tension on the inhale.
- If doing pulse shots, valsalva the spike and exhale as you ramp/hold tension behind the spike. Relax on inhale. Hit it fast with a 30% pre-load.
- do not worry about the sensation of this or that getting in on the exertion. Over time you will develop the skill of isometric exertion. Newbies don't just grab a barbell and exert like they will after 8 weeks of hitting it. If things aren't starting to fall into place after 4 consistent weeks then you might be a hard case and other approaches needed. A break in period is unavoidable. I was very familiar with iso and it still took several weeks to "season" in.
From my initial notes:
*Regardless of current fitness status, it can take several weeks of training before one is liable to feel that they are able to effectively apply isometric force with good posture and breathing. *
If you're already doing these things for a month and having trouble, then getting creative makes sense. Otherwise, it does not.