watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
Once I’m past the first 2-3 weeks of a cycle (blowing the cobwebs out via straight sets) I use step loading by set.
In weightlifting programming it’s very common, so I use it even in hypertrophic sessions
Hypertrophy Hypertrophy w/puddleduck
- Thread starter Jeff Roark
- Start date
Once I’m past the first 2-3 weeks of a cycle (blowing the cobwebs out via straight sets) I use step loading by set.
In weightlifting programming it’s very common, so I use it even in hypertrophic sessions
@watchnerd and @North Coast Miller what do you mean by "step loading set by set" ?
silveraw
Level 9 Valued Member
I thought it was like this:
100, 100,100,100,100
Next week
120,100,100,100,100
120,120,100,100,100
Kinda how S&S 2.0 progresses.
LukeV
Level 7 Valued Member
I’m sorry but what you’re saying here simply isn’t true, the fundamentals of strength and hypertrophy training are to a certain extent polar opposite, although it is true to say that many people achieve success in both using hybrid approaches. If your focus is strength you will workout with lower reps, longer rest periods, staying away from failure in order to stay as fresh as possible. If your focus is hypertrophy you will workout with higher reps, shorter rest periods, working closer to failure aiming to get fatigued. As I say, many/most people want to achieve strength and hypertrophy or unwittingly go down that path by selecting popular programs designed as hybrids. But hybrids by their nature are not optimal for either goal. For example, if your goal is purely strength you wouldn’t choose 531 or StrongLifts because they provide insufficient reps near your top weight for optimal strength development. And if your goal is purely hypertrophy you wouldn’t choose 531 or Stronglifts because they provide insufficient volume for optimal muscle building. Yet many people whose goal is strength and hypertrophy enjoy their success using those programs
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puddleduck
Level 6 Valued Member
No, you are pointedly not aiming to get fatigued with hypertrophy training. The high reps element can be true (if you enjoy high reps) but lower reps are absolutely ok. 5-8 is probably a sweet spot for a majority of people staying 1-2 reps in reserve
Shorter rests will reduce the effectiveness of the subsequent set too, so again not a metric to actively chase (unless you love being fatigued of course, but then your goals are moving from being primarily about hypertrophy to being primarily about enjoyment, which is fine)
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
First set 10 reps @ 100lbs
Second 7 reps @ 130lbs
Third set 4 reps @ 170lbs
Or something similar. Can also be done in reverse. In my opinion it works better on the increase, but either way the load and rep count change every set.
Dydo
Level 5 Valued Member
5/3/1 has many modifications, where even the volume is not small at all. There are also variants with so-called jokers, where heavy singles are made, etc. In subsequent programs, leaders and anchors were introduced, which are characterized by a period of accumulation and a period of intensification.
Antti
Level 10 Valued Member
I think fatigue isn't that simple. We obviously want to fatigue the motor units for developments. However, we want to minimise fatigue overall.
If one trains a muscle group only once a week and loves training, the pump, etc, no reason why you can't beat everything down as you'll likely recover well for the next session. Is it necessary or optimal? Is it relevant? And necessary or optimal in what context?
LukeV
Level 7 Valued Member
"The dose-response relationship between proximity to failure and strength gain appears to differ from the relationship with muscle hypertrophy, with only the latter being meaningfully influenced by RIR. Strength gains were similar across a wide range of RIR, while muscle hypertrophy improves as sets are terminated closer to failure."
Getting close to failure is what fatigue means. Hypertrophy training requires you to get closer to failure. Strength training does not require you to get closer to failure.
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Hung
Level 8 Valued Member
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Seems like more than one way to do this thing.
LukeV
Level 7 Valued Member
The standard template for 531 has the final set as AMRAP, providing hypertrophy stimulus certainly, but scarcely optimal. From a strength perspective, the standard template of 531 provides limited opportunity to lift above 80% of your 1RM, less than 12 reps across a four week cycle. So it's not optimal for strength. That's my point. It's a great hybrid program if you want to develop strength and muscle simultaneously but you wouldn't choose it if you wanted one or the other.
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
My 2 cents on the whole topic can be summed up:
- tension
- metabolic stress
- occasional muscle damage
Tension can be heavy load, higher working speed, overcoming isometric
Metabolic stress simply involves glucose depletion in the muscle. Can also involve blood occlusion. Can involve deeper muscle fatigue but not required.
Muscle damage can cross over with metabolic stress if we include muscle protein breakdown from exercise, in which case it would be frequent. Otherwise, some periodic deeper harm seems to be required to draw in satellite cells.
Some fatigue seems to be necessary, as a big part of the response to strength or hypertrophy IS volume equated. One set of anything taken nowhere near failure leaves you with very little response. Repeated tension/stretch is mechanistic, but cannot be separated from production and accumulation of metabolites...speculate away!
- tension
- metabolic stress
- occasional muscle damage
Tension can be heavy load, higher working speed, overcoming isometric
Metabolic stress simply involves glucose depletion in the muscle. Can also involve blood occlusion. Can involve deeper muscle fatigue but not required.
Muscle damage can cross over with metabolic stress if we include muscle protein breakdown from exercise, in which case it would be frequent. Otherwise, some periodic deeper harm seems to be required to draw in satellite cells.
Some fatigue seems to be necessary, as a big part of the response to strength or hypertrophy IS volume equated. One set of anything taken nowhere near failure leaves you with very little response. Repeated tension/stretch is mechanistic, but cannot be separated from production and accumulation of metabolites...speculate away!
Dydo
Level 5 Valued Member
Some time ago I read an article by a good trainer who explained the application of these approaches in the case of losing weight. Basically all three work for building muscle, that's for sure, but according to the article when tapering you should only do option 1 and/or option 3 as you won't be able to recover from the high volume. At 1, you don't need to train to failure, because the tension will be enough, such as 3x5 at 85% of the max. At some point, if you've lost a lot of weight and your joints aren't as well packed to lift the heavy weight, go to option 3 with one two sets to failure. For example 1-2x8-12
puddleduck
Level 6 Valued Member
cool, yeah totally agree with the proximity to failure. The bit that I think people need to consider carefully is the use of higher reps and lower rest between sets.
Jeff Roark
Level 7 Valued Member
In turn, what you spout here is simply not true either. Short rest periods and aiming for fatigue is flawed.
puddleduck
Level 6 Valued Member
I’m working at the mo but I’ll dig some bits out on metabolic stress…. I think that’s being seen as less and less important for hypertrophy (I’d venture to be seen as irrelevant at some point)
Jeff Roark
Level 7 Valued Member
thats the only thing he said that is true in regards to hypertrophy.
Dydo
Level 5 Valued Member
I got a little confused because of the two statements. Which is actually true and which isn't.
English is not my native language and it could be my fault, for which I apologize if so.
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
I think its very important to note that "metabolic stress" doesn't have to = "high volume".