North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
This was one of the drivers for me to put what I know out there, and in usable detail.
Other/Mixed New training block, Isometrics as primary resistance training
- Thread starter North Coast Miller
- Start date
Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Ramping Up
This isn't the most effective for Maximal and Explosive Strength Development.
The concept of “if you want to move fast, you need to train fast” also applies to IST (Isometric Training). It has been established that in order to increase the rate of force development by training with IST, individuals will have to perform each contraction / action as rapidly as possible. For example, a protocol that involved rapid but no sustained contraction (~1 s), was previously found to result in greater improvement in explosive strength than a protocol that used a ramp up and sustained contraction protocol in two studies (Balshaw et al., 2016; Tillin & Folland, 2014). However, these two studies also reported lower levels of strength increment with the rapid contraction protocol. In a more recent study from our lab, we found that when the rapid contraction protocol included a 3 s sustained contraction, there would be a concurrent improvement in both maximum and explosive strength.
Source: Isometric Training: Science and Practical Applications - Science of Multi-Directional Speed
No Possible
A Maximum all out Muscle Contraction is produces in around 10 Seconds with an Isometric Action or in a Resistance Training Movement.
The Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber are exhausted in the approximately 10 Seconds. They are not longer innervated or firing.
Performing a Isometric for Minutes innervates the Endurance Slow Twitch Muscle Fiber
Altitude Drops and Rebounds
You, I and maybe a couple of other on this forum know what Altitude Drops are.
Training to failure with Altitude Drops and Rebound is contraindicated.
Altitude Drop is a Ballistic Eccentric Movement that optimizes Eccentric Strength.
Altitude Drop, when performed correctly, develop the "Super" Fast Explosive Type IIb/x Muscle Fiber.
Training them to failure negates that Training Effect.
Research (post on this forum) demonstrate the best High Jumpers are the best jumpers.
Due to their exceptional Ballistic Eccentric Strength, the jumper were able to convert horizontal (Running Force) into Vertical Force (Jumping Force) to reach greater heights.
Rebound To Failure fall into the same category.
Metabolic Training
Performing them to failure will probably work for Metabolic Training.
However, that falls inline with CrossFitter who employ Olympic Movements for Metabolic Training and going to failure
It ensure Poor Technique is developed; movements near failure resemble someone having a seizure.
Secondly, Altitude Drops, Rebounds, and Olympic Movement are optimal methods for developing Power and Strength and should be used as such.
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Training for Life
Level 6 Valued Member
Great points @Kenny Croxdale, thank you for your insights. What do you think about using rebounds and drops not to improve maximal speed or explosiveness, but rather to be able to sustain a high level of explosiveness for longer period of time, like something I feel could be useful in many sports like boxing and soccer? Would in this case it make sense to do more volume?
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Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Rebounds (Plyometrics, Depth Jumps and Altitude/Depth Landings Volume
As you know more does not equate in obtaining better results.
Rebounds, Depth Jumps and Altitude are intense movements.
The intensity dictates to some degree the amount of volume.
As Intensity goes up, the Volume goes down.
As Vince Gironda (Bodybuilder and Great Bodybuilding Coach) said...
"You can Training Hard or Long but not both".
The intensity of these movement has to do with Impact Force which is similar to Low Repetitions Sets with Heavy Loads.
Let's look at the...
Impact Forces
Run-specific quasi-isometrics
Similar to plyometric exercises, the run specific quasi-isometric exercises can impose considerably high impact forces, especially when the athlete attempts to resist rather than attenuate impact force. For example, impact forces in high intensity bilateral plyometric exercises can range from 3.5x body weight (BW) in a 46 cm drop jump to 5.4x BW in a 90 cm depth drop (or altitude landing) [7,8,9,10]. These forces are similar to the impact forces in maximal velocity running, but in these plyometric exercises the impact forces are shared between both legs [11].Source: Oscillatory isometrics
https://www.sportsmith.co/articles/pseudo-isometrics/#:~:text=Not only might oscillatory isometrics,factor in dynamic athletic performance.
Math Example Based On l60 lb Individual
1) 46 cm/18.4 in Drop Jump
3.5 X 160 Body Weight = 560 lbs. of Impact Force
2) 90 cm/35.4 in Drop Jumps
5.4 X 160 lbs. Body Weight = 864 lbs. of Impact Force
While "The Impact Force is shared by both Legs, the Low Back is absorbing all of it.
2 Meter Jumps
The Russian determined that drops from 2 meter produce Impact Forces that were 20 time greater or more than the athlete's body weight
"Strength Training of Jumpers"
Teoriya I Praktika Fizcheskoi Kultury, 10:62-64, 1978
L.I. Dursenev, L.G. Raevsky
Soviet Sports Review/1979/Yessis
That would mean a 160 lb. individual dropping from 2 meters would encounter 3200 lbs. of Impact Force.
With that in mind, the Volume of these movement has to do with the Impart Force that you are dealing with.
Volume
How much Volume would you consider and how did you come up with that?
I Infrequently perform Altitude Drop for Squats, Deadlifts and the Bench Press Training. I keep it to a minimum.
I can't provide you with any more information on your question.
Sources
These are some good sources that might assist you...
1) What is the most direct means to achieve strength gains specific to the demands of jumping events?
https://www.coachnicknewman.com/upl...rength_training_for_jumpers_-_david_kerin.pdf
This is a brilliant article by David Kerin.
2) Jumping Into Plyometrics
Dr. Donald Chu
High Powered Plyometrics
Jimmy Radcliff
Functional Strength Considerations for the Advance High Jumper
Functional Strength Considerations for the Advanced High... : Strength & Conditioning Journal
An abstract is unavailable. This article is available as a PDF only.
journals.lww.com
Great article that gets into Altitude Drops; quoted in Kerin's article.
I have it and can email it to you.
I am sure there are other good sources out there.
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Stronger and Larger Tendons for Power.
Dr. Keith Baar provides information on developing the Stretch Reflex, a major factor for increasing Force Production.
EPISODE 63: Baar TALKS ABOUT COLLAGEN SYNTHESIS, KETOGENIC DIET, MTORC1 SIGNALING, AUTOPHAGY, POST STRENGTH TRAINING NUTRITION, AND MORE…
https://www.ihmc.us/stemtalk/episode-63/
Athletic Performance and Health
45:15 Minutes Mark
1) Low Plyometric Sports
a) Lower mechanical loads occur with Swimming, Biking, etc. (Trauma to Tendons)
b) Lower Plyometric Sports need to focus on Plyometric Movements in their training, as well as Limit Strength Training.
2) High Velocity Plyometric Sports
a) Higher mechanical loading occurs with sports like Soccer (running impact forces) and Football (contact forces)
b) The High Velocity of Plyometric Movements ("Fast Exercises") leads to an increase in Tendon Stiffness which increase force production; the greater the tendon stiffness, the faster the athlete.
c) High Velocity Plyometric Movement ("Fast Exercises") Impact Force Loads increases the chances of an injury; greater trauma is placed on tendons.
d) Plyometric Sport Athletes need to focus on Limit Strength Training to maintain tendon and ligament health/recovery.
Met Analysis
Slower Strength Movements with Heavy Weight Training can decrease injury rate by approximately 50%; more than stretching does.
Mixed Training
1) High Velocity Sports need to focus on Slow Limit Strength; keeps tendons, ligaments and muscles healthy.
2) Low Velocity Sports needs to include High Velocity Plyometric Training, as well as Limit Strength; to strengthen tendon.
Take Home Message
Tendons are a vital component of the Stretch Reflex (Plyometric Movements).
Research has determined that up to 18% more Force Production occurs with a Stretch Reflex; dependent on the Loading/Force.
Tendons are like springs that store energy.
Slow Heavy Exercise Movements and Isometric Actions increase Tendon Strength developing a bigger, stronger spring.
As Baar stated above, "High Velocity Sports" needs focus on Slow Heavy Training that increase Tendon Strength. Isometric Training is one of the most effective for increasing Tendon's Strength and Size.
Movements doesn't get any slower than an Isometric, since there is none.
Dr. Keith Baar provides information on developing the Stretch Reflex, a major factor for increasing Force Production.
EPISODE 63: Baar TALKS ABOUT COLLAGEN SYNTHESIS, KETOGENIC DIET, MTORC1 SIGNALING, AUTOPHAGY, POST STRENGTH TRAINING NUTRITION, AND MORE…
https://www.ihmc.us/stemtalk/episode-63/
Athletic Performance and Health
45:15 Minutes Mark
1) Low Plyometric Sports
a) Lower mechanical loads occur with Swimming, Biking, etc. (Trauma to Tendons)
b) Lower Plyometric Sports need to focus on Plyometric Movements in their training, as well as Limit Strength Training.
2) High Velocity Plyometric Sports
a) Higher mechanical loading occurs with sports like Soccer (running impact forces) and Football (contact forces)
b) The High Velocity of Plyometric Movements ("Fast Exercises") leads to an increase in Tendon Stiffness which increase force production; the greater the tendon stiffness, the faster the athlete.
c) High Velocity Plyometric Movement ("Fast Exercises") Impact Force Loads increases the chances of an injury; greater trauma is placed on tendons.
d) Plyometric Sport Athletes need to focus on Limit Strength Training to maintain tendon and ligament health/recovery.
Met Analysis
Slower Strength Movements with Heavy Weight Training can decrease injury rate by approximately 50%; more than stretching does.
Mixed Training
1) High Velocity Sports need to focus on Slow Limit Strength; keeps tendons, ligaments and muscles healthy.
2) Low Velocity Sports needs to include High Velocity Plyometric Training, as well as Limit Strength; to strengthen tendon.
Take Home Message
Tendons are a vital component of the Stretch Reflex (Plyometric Movements).
Research has determined that up to 18% more Force Production occurs with a Stretch Reflex; dependent on the Loading/Force.
Tendons are like springs that store energy.
Slow Heavy Exercise Movements and Isometric Actions increase Tendon Strength developing a bigger, stronger spring.
As Baar stated above, "High Velocity Sports" needs focus on Slow Heavy Training that increase Tendon Strength. Isometric Training is one of the most effective for increasing Tendon's Strength and Size.
Movements doesn't get any slower than an Isometric, since there is none.
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3letterslong
Level 6 Valued Member
edited, I was just babbling.
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bluejeff
Level 7 Valued Member
I was catching up on this thread, because I am curious if anything here might be useful for me trying to fix my scapula issue.
Just a couple thoughts:
Let me just say that I'm not saying the above is something I think it "best" or "better" or anything. It's just my experience with trying to overcome movement disfunction. If you can feel the "right" way to move, i.e. the way that feels good, then you can start to load it and practice it. But being unable to feel that "right" movement means you don't really know if you're repatterning something the way you want.
For example: with my shoulder issue, I can get the scapula in a good position for certain movements, but I still get some residual "off" sensations post-training , even if they aren't painful. It's only on the rare occasions that the movement itself feels good that I walk away with no side effects.
I am attracted to the idea of using some isometrics to help with my issue, but am having trouble figuring out how to get things in the "correct" position to make them feel "right." I am mostly interested in them with regards to repatterning movments and increasing sensation and strength in particular positions.
Just a couple thoughts:
You know, I've always thought the same.... I've never struggled much with mobility, so something like squeezing the shoulders back to stretch the chest (as in extreme isos) only ever made it feel like I was hanging out on my joints, and not the muscles. It does seem contradictory to be pulling away from the muscle that would generally "hold you up." Like, how is that teaching it to contract more...?Given that we've now seen studies demonstrating hypertrophic results from long duration static stretching, I wonder if that effect is at play in the reported hypertrophy from extreme isos.
Regarding the above two quotes: Having dealt with a severe movement disorder, my observations are that "feeling" a muscle is best done at very low intensities. That doesn't mean I wouldn't use the overcoming isos. I agree with @North Coast Miller that if you just keep at them, you'll probably improve your ability to exert force through the desired muscles in a given position. That said, if you are wanting to improve the ability to tense specific muscles, I still put my bets on trying to relax everything else and then trying to contract them. You won't be producing MVC or anything like that, but that wouldn't be the point. The point would be feeling what you are trying to feel, if you want to go that route.
Let me just say that I'm not saying the above is something I think it "best" or "better" or anything. It's just my experience with trying to overcome movement disfunction. If you can feel the "right" way to move, i.e. the way that feels good, then you can start to load it and practice it. But being unable to feel that "right" movement means you don't really know if you're repatterning something the way you want.
For example: with my shoulder issue, I can get the scapula in a good position for certain movements, but I still get some residual "off" sensations post-training , even if they aren't painful. It's only on the rare occasions that the movement itself feels good that I walk away with no side effects.
I am attracted to the idea of using some isometrics to help with my issue, but am having trouble figuring out how to get things in the "correct" position to make them feel "right." I am mostly interested in them with regards to repatterning movments and increasing sensation and strength in particular positions.
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
IMHO, they are best at breaking existing patterns, at least if done more or less exclusively. If you can ID the point in a given movement, or a general movement such as horizontal pressing, you can break it down. Find the point, and set up on a hold just beneath that point.
In your case if the scapular movement shows up at 1/2 to 2/3 then set up underneath that. Exert iso, doesn't need to be fast initiation. Work on really pushing with everything, every exhale. Remind yourself that you're slacking with every exhale and to stay on with intention. In back of mind, keep aware of the shoulder blade position. The dynamics change:
- with duration of effort (up to a point)
- with familiarity.
If this is at long length all the better. Commit to it for about 6 weeks. As the proprioceptive groove of your older mechanics begins to atrophy, you'll find it easier to approach unfamiliar movements. Familiar movements will become less ingrained, possibly allowing you to take conscious control of the problem pattern and correct it with intention.
My personal observation is that most movements don't break down suddenly at a given point. They start off slightly out of whack and develop from there. Fixing the initial bracing can fix the entire range sometimes, but it requires a bit of mindfulness at that starting point.
bluejeff
Level 7 Valued Member
Thank you! I just want to make sure I understand you correctly. If my issue shows up at just under 90 degrees shoulder flexion I should set up just below that? And what do you mean by "1/2 to 2/3?" Range of motion, intensity, or something else?
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
I'm speaking of range of motion, yes. If you can become stable at initiation you should be good throughout. Possible exception with descending strength exercises like rows and pullups, where folks sometimes tend to go asymmetric close to full flexion.
3letterslong
Level 6 Valued Member
My understanding is that it teaches both sets of muscles (agonist and antagonist) to contract in stretched positions, where people normally display dysfunction, but sporting athletes wind up all the time. Once that range of motion is normal for you, suddenly your strides become longer when you're running and you're absorbing forces at joint angles that would normally make you collapse.
You're right on the money here. I'm doing the big six holds, plus some accessory holds, and I've started delving in with isolation holds for the specific muscles that feel weak when I try for MVC in the compound holds. And, on a few of the isolation holds, I have to start simply with trying to hold any tension in the target muscle at all for 60-90 seconds. The big holds I'm doing for tension and timer with breathing, as per Miller, but the little holds are going better for me when i time them.
@North Coast Miller you were right about the breathing: i wasn't breathing and I was tensing my entire body. Fixing those two things made the holds more productive. I also noticed that by really paying attention and eliminating tension in my neck and jaw that the target muscles are able to exert harder. Plus, my entire freaking head feels better after.
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
MVC Acronym
If I might suggest, in posting information, using acronyms is find as long as you identify what they stand for and then define what it is.
Many individuals are not familiar with the acronym and not sure what is the benefit.
Research article use a lot of acronyms. However, it is defined in the article so for individual to comprehend and learn.
With that said let's bread it down...
MVC
This stands for Maximum Voluntary Contraction; pushing or pulling against something as hard as possible.
The benefit in an Isometric is that it innervates and maximally develop the Fast Twitch Muscle Fibers producing an increase in Strength; when performed correctly.
At some point in Isometric Training, a Maximum Voluntary Contraction need to be implement to optimally increase Strength.
As an example...
Maximum Strength Training and Development
Maximum Strength is developed with...
This approach is counterproductive for Maximum Strength Training...
Low Repetitions For Strength
Sets of Repetition of 1-5.
The Total amount of time in a Maximum Strength Set should be around 10 Second.
Once past that Number of Repetition and Time, the Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber are no longer being innervated nor trained.
Slow Twitch Endurance Muscle Fiber Development
To reiterate, Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber are optimally trained and developed with intense contraction of around 10 Seconds.
A 60-90 Second Contraction develops that Slow Twitch Muscle Fiber and it may innervate Hypertrophy Development. Thus, it works for this objective.
That because when a Muscle is contracted elicit essentially the same response as Occlusion Training. Venous Blood flow from the Muscles back to the heart is restricted producing "The Pump", which triggers Hypertrophy.
Secondly, no one can maintain a Maximum Voluntary Contraction much past 10 Seconds, let along 60 - 90 Seconds.
Sticking Point Training
From Post 19
Other/Mixed - High Kinetic Isometrics
I saw in the goals thread where @North Coast Miller said he had made some really good progress with Isometrics. Thought I'd share a style that I've started messing around with. I'll be putting them to the test over the next year. Hopefully someone may find this interesting or that I am...
www.strongfirst.com
Isometric Sticking Point Training Angle
An increase in Sticking Point Strength occurs when performing an Isometric 15 degrees, above and below it.
There will be some carry over below and above that 15 degree angle. However, not to the same extent as with the specific angle in which the Isometric is performed.
Thus, some increases in strength will be produced "Through the entire range" but it will be substantially less that in the specific 15 degree area.
Since the Sticking Point is the "Weakest Link" in the movement chain, focusing on increasing Limit Strength at the particular point is a good investment to ensuring more weight is driven up.
Where's The Sticking Point?
The Sticking Point isn't where the bar stop moving. The Sticking Point is earlier in the movement.
Car Analogy
The Sticking Point is like a car that runs out of gas. The car will keep rolling. So, where the car eventually stop, isn't where it ran out of gas.
The same applies with the Sticking Point in an exercise.
Thus, Sticking Point Training is optimally accomplished with Isometric Training at angles just below where the bar stopped moving and just above.
Explosive-Isometric Training From Post 6
Another factor in Overcoming a Sticking Point is Power.
The Sticking Point amount to trying to drive your car though a mudhole. Increasing the Speed/Power of your car driving through the mudhole maximizing your chances of getting through it.
The same applies to a Sticking Point. Increasing Power in conjunction with increasing Strength at your Sticking Point are key.
This hybrid Explosive-Isometric Method is effective...
Other/Mixed - High Kinetic Isometrics
I saw in the goals thread where @North Coast Miller said he had made some really good progress with Isometrics. Thought I'd share a style that I've started messing around with. I'll be putting them to the test over the next year. Hopefully someone may find this interesting or that I am...
www.strongfirst.com
Explosive-Isometrics
One method that I have found that allow the initial movement off the pins to be Explosive and then a few inches up elicits an Isometric is with bands.
The band are attached to the bar so that once they reach a few inches off the rack (Sticking Point Area), they provide so much resistance and that there is no bar movement with the right band tension and weight loading.
You end up performing an Isometric at that point.
The gradual loading/resistance of the bands as you drive the weight up, slow the bar down, just prior to reaching the Isometric Position.
Now let me add this...
No Band Loading Explosive-Isometrics
This method involves progressively increasing the Loading within the Power or Speed Training Percentages.
The bar sitting on lower pins (let's say a Rack Bench Press), then being rammed into the Top Pins (pins a few inches higher in the Rack)
The Issue
1) It not good for the bar nor the Rack Pins.
2) The noise is deafening.
3) The Whiplash Effect...
The sudden stop when slamming into the Upper Isometric Pin produces a somewhat Whiplash Effect that doesn't feel good.
With the Explosive-Isometric Bands is no Slamming Into a Pin a few inches higher in the rack.
The Law of Unintended Consequences
This means that decision and action often have unintended outcomes.
Banded Explosive-Isometric were something I discovered by screwing up, performing Accommodating Resistance Band Bench Press Training in a Power Rack.
I Attached Bands to a Load Bar for Power Bench Press Training.
The bar exploded off the Bottom Pins with the Lighter Speed and Moderate Power Training Percentage.
However, the Bands that I attached to the bar were so strong that I was unable to Lock The Weight Out.
it's like Viagra that was developed for Blood Pressure and is now used for improved set, Erectile Disfunction.
3letterslong
Level 6 Valued Member
I now have 5 or 6 workouts under my belt and am very happy with what's happening.
My goal right now is to flex my weaker muscles (mostly around the scapula) as hard as I can my biceps, which I can flex so hard my arm starts shaking. I can generate this kind of tension if I contract my scapula muscles, but not from the stretched position (which I can do with my biceps). When I started these isometric workouts, I couldn't even lightly flex those back muscles for a full 90 seconds in the lengthened position. I've been increasing this control every workout.
Anyways, yesterday was a rest day and my back felt stronger (don't ask me to explain -- it just felt primed to lift things). I rattled off some experimental pull-ups and they were easier than they've ever been before. My scapula muscles are now contributing much more to the movement, not just letting the lats do all the work.
My goal right now is to flex my weaker muscles (mostly around the scapula) as hard as I can my biceps, which I can flex so hard my arm starts shaking. I can generate this kind of tension if I contract my scapula muscles, but not from the stretched position (which I can do with my biceps). When I started these isometric workouts, I couldn't even lightly flex those back muscles for a full 90 seconds in the lengthened position. I've been increasing this control every workout.
Anyways, yesterday was a rest day and my back felt stronger (don't ask me to explain -- it just felt primed to lift things). I rattled off some experimental pull-ups and they were easier than they've ever been before. My scapula muscles are now contributing much more to the movement, not just letting the lats do all the work.